If Decca carts were not so expensive (and finiky) I would have bought one to try just that as it has lateral/vertical coils.
@Pano: I do hope it goes both ways (fnarr).
Tip sensing? Is this like the classic old ceramic carts where the cantilever is pushed into a cradle support near the tip?
I can only support your statements. I was not only attributing the GE VR sound quality to the fact that it's a pure mono cart but as you state, it is of a different construction principle.
The DECCAs were also pure mono carts in the beginning as only the lateral coil was present. The vertical coils were added later to make them stereo capable. And yes, they also sense as close at the tip as possible and you may experience a similar sound experience as with these old GEs. But to simply try it out they are quite expensive
OK, i just looked at some photos of the Decca. Wow! The coils really are right there at the stylus.
Even better!
The GEs are build with a cantilever made from a magentically conductive material. The part where the tip is mounted is at the same time the magnetic path modulation part of the sensing elements. This front part of the cantilever sits directly between the poles of the magnetic assembly
Thanks! 
That's so different than the modern style cart. Obviously this style of cart was dropped, but why?
That's so different than the modern style cart. Obviously this style of cart was dropped, but why?Good question.
I think there must be some drawbacks when trying to use this principle for stereo carts. Many cartridges at these late mono times were of this construction (here in Germany e.g. ELACs, these carts nowdays go for several hundred Euros), but they dissapeared when stereo became the new technology. Decca was one of the very few who developed their construction further and did not disapear.
I think there must be some drawbacks when trying to use this principle for stereo carts. Many cartridges at these late mono times were of this construction (here in Germany e.g. ELACs, these carts nowdays go for several hundred Euros), but they dissapeared when stereo became the new technology. Decca was one of the very few who developed their construction further and did not disapear.
The last mono system I had was a 78 RPM Edison wind-up with the steel needles (which you actually could get a jewel replacement for) and yes, I modified it by replacing the mica diaphragm with a plastic one derived from a snap-on can cover. A bit more compliance! I once brought it to an audiophile gathering, where it was played as an example of...something.
Groove direct to sound through a horn via a fully mechanical system - baby! I'm pretty sure aficionados could go as nuts on this type of system as any other. ...constructing very large horns using the various flares known. ...exotic, super light materials for the cantilever instead of steel. ...various materials for the diaphragm instead of the original mica sheet. ...introducing phase plugs of various designs into the horn throat.
20 years ago, I accidentally stepped on my Tommy Dorsey and his Clambake 7 disc while moving my Altec Valencias - :'( I sold that machine on ebay over 10 years ago. It's hard, but I pass them up at yard sales these days... I saw a pretty nice console last summer and it was gone when I - drawn by who knows what, as I dont have any media - went back for a 2nd look.
Groove direct to sound through a horn via a fully mechanical system - baby! I'm pretty sure aficionados could go as nuts on this type of system as any other. ...constructing very large horns using the various flares known. ...exotic, super light materials for the cantilever instead of steel. ...various materials for the diaphragm instead of the original mica sheet. ...introducing phase plugs of various designs into the horn throat.
20 years ago, I accidentally stepped on my Tommy Dorsey and his Clambake 7 disc while moving my Altec Valencias - :'( I sold that machine on ebay over 10 years ago. It's hard, but I pass them up at yard sales these days... I saw a pretty nice console last summer and it was gone when I - drawn by who knows what, as I dont have any media - went back for a 2nd look.
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I've heard a restored Edison Diamond Disk which was a vertical cut like the Edison cylinders. Very surprisingly good! Not high fidelity as we think of it today, but very direct and enjoyable. Most of the comments were "That sounds good."
Mono summing fun
Here are three MP3 files that have been zipped. These were recorded this morning off a 1960 spoken word mono LP. The LP has not been cleaned in recent memory.
First file is as recorded from a Stanton 681 stereo cart.
Second file is 40Hz rumble filter followed by a software mono sum.
Third file is rumble filter followed by a 9dB DSP reduction of the side channels. More of the side channels can be removed, but it starts to sound strange beyond about 12dB reduction.
Listen for the amount of surface noise, pops, clicks, groove and turntable noise in the 3 different files.
The analog to digital audio chain is nothing special.
Rek-O-Kut Rondine Jr.
Stanton 681 conical stylus tracking 3g on Grado maple arm.
ART DJ Pro phono amp
Behringer UMC204HD soundcard running at 48/24
GoldWave editing software
LAME MP3 encoding at 240 kbps
Here are three MP3 files that have been zipped. These were recorded this morning off a 1960 spoken word mono LP. The LP has not been cleaned in recent memory.
First file is as recorded from a Stanton 681 stereo cart.
Second file is 40Hz rumble filter followed by a software mono sum.
Third file is rumble filter followed by a 9dB DSP reduction of the side channels. More of the side channels can be removed, but it starts to sound strange beyond about 12dB reduction.
Listen for the amount of surface noise, pops, clicks, groove and turntable noise in the 3 different files.
The analog to digital audio chain is nothing special.
Rek-O-Kut Rondine Jr.
Stanton 681 conical stylus tracking 3g on Grado maple arm.
ART DJ Pro phono amp
Behringer UMC204HD soundcard running at 48/24
GoldWave editing software
LAME MP3 encoding at 240 kbps
Hi Pano,
(and I know I can do this but have no time at the moment). Are you able to play around with the channel balance by 1-2dB and see how that changes the cancellation when summed to mono?
(and I know I can do this but have no time at the moment). Are you able to play around with the channel balance by 1-2dB and see how that changes the cancellation when summed to mono?
For their 'Prima Voce' releases Nimbus had just such as setup. 15ft long horn. Trying to find a good picture of it
I was aware of the difference between stereo and mono summing and the reduction of the noise level. Your side channel attenuation approach is really remarkable - the noise cancelation is very good without affecting the wanted mono sound. Playing with 1 to 2 dB asymmetry may help cancel sensitivity differences between the two channels of the stereo cart and improve the noise cancelation even more.
Thanks. I wish I knew what the side reduction is actually doing. I thought is was Mid minus Side but it seems to be more than that.
I did try mono sum with left & right out of balance by 1,2,3dB and I can't really tell any difference in the result. I'll try it on a mono music LP.
I did try mono sum with left & right out of balance by 1,2,3dB and I can't really tell any difference in the result. I'll try it on a mono music LP.
Thank you. On my eternally growing list of things to sort is a quick way of ripping vinyl so I can do some comparisons. Being able to compare vertical null with audible noise would be really interesting.
Intrigues me too. It shouldn't do anything with mono, but stranger things have happened.
Being a rebel I have played old Decca LXTs on everything from a 0.5mil conical to a Gyger FGS and not really noticed any issues (but not done any form of repeatable comparison either). I've never got a 1mil stylus despite Ortofon doing one as a stock model (albeit with very odd compliance for the OM range. The thing that has put me off is failing to find a single positive comment on the D25M. I don't usually give internet anecodes much credence but the universal lack of love for this makes me wonder what is going on. I'll have to bite the bullet one day and try it...
My vinyl rip is two channel mono. Hear the file attached earlier. The two channels are never identical because the noise is very often different in the 2 channels. In fact a great deal of the noise is independent in left and right. Getting rid of anything that is not common between the channels kills a lot of noise. Just mixing it together as a mono sum doesn't work as well in rejecting the noise.
I haven't yet figured out how to do this in the analog domain.
Darn it, you made me have to think! Of course if the noise/grot causes a 45 degree movement of the cantilever then you'll only get 6dB of attenuation of that noise. Interesting. But does that happen with a mono cut with constant groove depth? I guess only one way to find out (which links neatly to my next post, which I'll add tomorrow). But looks like there is some value to ripping a mono album in stereo just to see the scale of the issue.