I would compare it with the 8PS21. This is a similar driver but more aimed for use as a direct radiator.
B&C Speakers
B&C Speakers
Ouch that peak about 1.8kHz for the 8PS21.
But for midrange duty I don't think the 8PE21 needs to be horn loaded. Or?
But for midrange duty I don't think the 8PE21 needs to be horn loaded. Or?
Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean either driver will perform well that high. This is something that a response plot isn't going to show.
Thank you. I like that 15TBW100 too. The cost is really high, actually, it is way above my budget. The 15NBX100 also seems to be discontinued. Very sad news.
Thank you, could you please share more details about why 8PS21 be better choice than 8PE21 for my application assuming that crossover to 15" woofer will be around 400-600Hz?
Best option under $300.00
https://www.parts-express.com/lavoce-waf15400-15-subwoofer-8-ohm--293-725
No advantage of the 8PS21 in the range your using them.
https://www.parts-express.com/lavoce-waf15400-15-subwoofer-8-ohm--293-725
No advantage of the 8PS21 in the range your using them.
Yes, if you are going to use it that high then I think you'll find the PE is a very good driver. You may get almost 2 octaves out of it.
Have you chosen your waveguide and upper cross point?
Have you chosen your waveguide and upper cross point?
My gut feeling is that crossing that high you are compromising the subwoofer region you want to achieve. Requirement to get to 30hz and to 400hz is almost four octaves. I bet the lab12 for example dont't sound very good that high 🙂 I mean i've tried the recipe, light cone 15", 8" and 1" in a horn, currently playing at home. Either the 8" is unnecessary there because the 15" is capable to handle the octaves, or the 15" should be a proper sub driver to get to the 30hzies and leave the mids to the mid driver.
Difference between 8" and 6.5" is in the directivity, and potentially in the low end extension. If there is a 15" playing up to low mids I think it is only matter of directivity what you want the mid driver size to be. For example my STH100 horn seems, according to measurements and fiddling with crossover, to slightly better match a 6.5" than 8" mid I have.
Hopefully this helps, trying to output what I've learned the set I'm experimenting. It is all compromises after all 🙂
Difference between 8" and 6.5" is in the directivity, and potentially in the low end extension. If there is a 15" playing up to low mids I think it is only matter of directivity what you want the mid driver size to be. For example my STH100 horn seems, according to measurements and fiddling with crossover, to slightly better match a 6.5" than 8" mid I have.
Hopefully this helps, trying to output what I've learned the set I'm experimenting. It is all compromises after all 🙂
Thank you for your suggestion. That driver has serious Xmax and Xlim for a pro subwoofer driver 😱
Thank you. It is really hard to decide the appropriate XO point for upper region because I do not have midrange driver in hand. My testing with DE250/CDX 1745 and H290c, QSC 152 waveguide provided really promising result with 1k6 XO point.
However, I have not tested with SEO10 waveguide. Eric said to me that SEO10 can control directivity down to 1k2 minimum, so I think that It can be good enough with 1k6 XO. After 2k, 8PE21 seems to enter its break-up zone. So I think that 1k6-1k8 is quite a safe point. But surely, it must be tested fully to finalize. Luckily, my setup choice is active DSP and I have pro treated room (quite small - 20m2), so it will reduce testing time considerably.
Thank you, my original plan is to use 15" midbass woofer. I do not have plan to use subwoofer in this setup. My experiment with BC 12PLB100 in vented box showed me really promising result: in flushmounted config, it play effortlessly down to 30Hz in room. The room is really well treated, too.
In bassbox simulation, I tuned it at 38-40Hz (I dont remember correctly ATM), F10 is around 35Hz. However, when I installed it in the room, that F10 actually become F6. I flushmounted several speakers before, and it generally show the same behavior.
The enclosure for the 12PLB100 is built by heavy brick, not MDF.
I attached the frequency response of that 2-way here. It is graph show how L/R channel is matched in the room.
I also attached the waterfall of the room. That graph is when subwoofer (2x12 LAB12) play with the 2-way main, crossed at 80Hz LR4. The THD graph is measured at 100dB @1m.
LAB12 cannot play well above 150Hz. However, I believe a 15" midbass can play nicely upto 500-700Hz. The reason I want to go 3-way instead of 2-way 1x15" is that I want to try the midrange of a true midrange driver to see if it is better than 2-way 1x15" config.
Actually, I already really happy with my 2-way 1x12" speaker. However, it is addictive to try new things 😀
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1k6 is probably nearer to the minimum. Maybe up to 2k depending on the waveguide and the cross itself.
If I forget how my speaker look and use bigger waveguide than SEO-10 such as H290c or QSC 152 or JBL clone, will it combine well with 8PE21 at 2K LR2 or 1.6K LR4?
A larger waveguide can work but there is no benefit over a smaller one closer matched to the 8" drivers size. There would be a directivity mismatch with the QSC horn and 8" at 1.6khz. You would have to cross at 2khz thus defeating the purpose of a larger waveguide
ErnieM, good point. Better control could end up with a slightly higher crossover frequency to match the woofer. It's how this happens that is unclear.
A tighter pattern at the low end could be due to a larger waveguide or a smaller one (olson secondary flare).. A larger waveguide could come with more apparent control or not (diffraction treatment).
As I was going to suggest to Symphonicmind, I'm not inclined to guess beyond what I have said so far other than to feel it is worth a try.
A tighter pattern at the low end could be due to a larger waveguide or a smaller one (olson secondary flare).. A larger waveguide could come with more apparent control or not (diffraction treatment).
As I was going to suggest to Symphonicmind, I'm not inclined to guess beyond what I have said so far other than to feel it is worth a try.
Good points as well. After looking at the measurements of the QSC, I think it's definitely worth trying despite looking a little funny.
Give it a shot before buying any other waveguides.
Nice work on your 2-ways Symphonicmind.
I even forgot I paired the QSC with a 10" with great results.
Give it a shot before buying any other waveguides.
Nice work on your 2-ways Symphonicmind.
I even forgot I paired the QSC with a 10" with great results.
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Thank you, i will try to test all waveguides that I have at hand to see which one is more suitable. I think iwht 1.6-2k XO point SEO-10 maybe good enough.
I think due to the... look, I will maximum go with a 10" wide waveguide. I know the sound is important, however... I just cant stand ugly speakers
Thank you. Yeah, 12-14in waveguide above an 8" mid is so funny and ugly looking 🙂)
couple of great 15 inch drivers
I have used a few 15 inch drivers as pure subs and to cover the 30Hz to 600Hz band, here are my thoughts/preferences and sims attached... Hope they help!
(1) In wall is already vastly superior to floor standing / stand mount... Nice!
(2) I chose drivers suitable for sealed box loading and use DSP for crossover Eq.
(3) I dont like ports/ back wave loading which cause time-domain distortions.
(4) I believe its a better compromise to minimise cone travel (maximise Sd) and accept directivity compromise.
(5) If any driver is having to use more than 70% of its Xmax at your preferred SPL's use a bigger driver or add on a second driver.
With the above caveats here are my top 3 driver recommendations for your design:
Precision Devices PD 158 (Best Mms to Bl ratio, best upper midshttp://www.precision-devices.com/file-downloads/PD158-DATASHEET-310114.pdf)
Beyma 15P80 Fe/N (Best overall compromise, great bass and low midshttps://www.beyma.com/en/products/c/low-mid-frequency/115P80FEN8/altavoz-15p80fe-n-8-oh/ )
Precision Devices PD 1550 (Best bass, still very good low midshttp://www.precision-devices.com/file-downloads/PD1550-DATASHEET-310114.pdf)
Good luck with your project!
A.
I have used a few 15 inch drivers as pure subs and to cover the 30Hz to 600Hz band, here are my thoughts/preferences and sims attached... Hope they help!
(1) In wall is already vastly superior to floor standing / stand mount... Nice!
(2) I chose drivers suitable for sealed box loading and use DSP for crossover Eq.
(3) I dont like ports/ back wave loading which cause time-domain distortions.
(4) I believe its a better compromise to minimise cone travel (maximise Sd) and accept directivity compromise.
(5) If any driver is having to use more than 70% of its Xmax at your preferred SPL's use a bigger driver or add on a second driver.
With the above caveats here are my top 3 driver recommendations for your design:
Precision Devices PD 158 (Best Mms to Bl ratio, best upper midshttp://www.precision-devices.com/file-downloads/PD158-DATASHEET-310114.pdf)
Beyma 15P80 Fe/N (Best overall compromise, great bass and low midshttps://www.beyma.com/en/products/c/low-mid-frequency/115P80FEN8/altavoz-15p80fe-n-8-oh/ )
Precision Devices PD 1550 (Best bass, still very good low midshttp://www.precision-devices.com/file-downloads/PD1550-DATASHEET-310114.pdf)
Good luck with your project!
A.
Nice drivers but not necessarily better below 300hz....and they're more than the op is wanting to spend.
I you go for the LaVoce(or any woofer actually) I suggest exercising the suspension with a 10-20hz sine wave at noticeable excursions for a good day or two. Do it in free air to minimize noise.
It might be my ears playing tricks but they do seem to open up after 50 hours or so.
I you go for the LaVoce(or any woofer actually) I suggest exercising the suspension with a 10-20hz sine wave at noticeable excursions for a good day or two. Do it in free air to minimize noise.
It might be my ears playing tricks but they do seem to open up after 50 hours or so.
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On budget... $200 extra on drivers is prob under 0.1% of the hardware spend in a recording studio... The extra on drivers is a wise investment.
On bass (and low midrange)... All three drivers will effortlessly hit 30Hz and do so with unmatched precision and articulation.
A vital point is the in-wall Vs free-standing, most people on this forum will be very familiar with floor standing, stand mound domestic and PA loudspeakers.
Some will have experience with on wall line arrays...
Its a different beast when you go pro studio and build into solid walls... The upgrade is astonishing.
Unless you have heard the same drivers/crossovers/amps/source compared in the same room with free standing and in-wall its hard to believe just how great the difference is.
On bass (and low midrange)... All three drivers will effortlessly hit 30Hz and do so with unmatched precision and articulation.
A vital point is the in-wall Vs free-standing, most people on this forum will be very familiar with floor standing, stand mound domestic and PA loudspeakers.
Some will have experience with on wall line arrays...
Its a different beast when you go pro studio and build into solid walls... The upgrade is astonishing.
Unless you have heard the same drivers/crossovers/amps/source compared in the same room with free standing and in-wall its hard to believe just how great the difference is.
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Thank you very much for detailed reply and suggestion. I will start to model those drivers carefully to see if it fits my needs.
The biggest problem for me is the total cost of the driver. Those Precision Device drivers look like the beasts, however, they are really expensive considering both tax, shipping, custom fee...
If they cost 200 GBP in UK, I will have to pay at least 2.5-3 times the price to have it in my place 🙁
In my area, I have some B&C, Eminence, Celestion distributors. That is the reason why my initial plan is to go with B&C.
Thank you. Do pro drivers need that big amount of exercise to really break in? 😱
My previous measurement's been taken after just few very strong log sweeps and 1 hour high SPL playback (around 115-117dB @1m).
I think I have to re-measure them again. 😀
Yeah, I love flushmounting every speakers I have. I did that once long time before and I can not undo the sound of flushmounted speakers/subwoofer out of my head! 😀 The bass is generally ruler flat and very stable in the room. The stereo image is... 😀 so BIG and real. 😀
Have you ever tried those drivers in some of your project? Honestly, after listening to B&C (12PLB100 + DE250 combo), I immediately in love with them and cant wait to do a full 3-way with B&C drivers. One more reason is B&C driver is available around me, too. However, I have not ever listened to PD and Beymar Driver before.
I attached the picture of my previous system with 2-way main (B&C drivers) and sub (LAB12).
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=843002&stc=1&d=1589193581
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=843003&stc=1&d=1589193581
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It could be my ears! Who knows for sure. Probably depends on the driver at hand if it even needs much break in time at all.
Nice in wall mounting for sure!
To be honest, if you are used to the Lab 12 you will LOVE almost any B&C /Beyma Pro driver... The Lab 12 is a hideous piece of work, even compared to other cheap "cart horse" car subwoofers its a dog!
Sorry to be so blunt but you will totally understand why I say this once you install good Pro drivers in their place.
Yes the PD drivers are (in my experience) the best, but Beyma run them a close second and I believe B&C, Faital, RCF and 18 Sound all have some killer drivers as well.
No DIY guy (and very few pros) ever buy 5 or 10 pairs of similar drivers from different manufacturers and then methodically test, measure and listen to them all... All we can do is to offer advice from our own limited experience.
A few suggestions:
First I would buy a (or two) 2m by 3m heavy shag pile rugs and cover your floor... that's gonna help big time!
Second invest in some sidewall dispersion/diffraction panels and maybe some rear wall (behind your head) absorption as well. Please read up on how to treat room acoustics in small nearfield studio setups... Sound On Sound are a good independent reference.
I am a fan of 15 inch bass/mid drivers, but to minimise building work you could simply use twin Beyma 12 inch drivers to replace the Lab 12's?
Check out the attached sim and driver spec... Look at that Mms / Bl ratio and the linen surround Vs the mass of rubber round the LAB 12.... I promise you the Beyma drivers will give you detailed, textured and articulate bass and low midrange instead of muddy distorted grunge!
All the best
A.
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