BK12m was commissioned and Scott & i put it together specifically to match the layout of the (ancient BK166/206 (or whatever they are called). Good within those restraints. FH3 handily outperforms it even with the FE126 which is on the edge for fitting into the FH3.
For a front mouth horn i would look at Kongo.
dave
For a front mouth horn i would look at Kongo.
dave
Thanks Dave.
I went with my gut/intuition (which never fails me), and what I know I like, and I bought a pair of FE108EZ's. Honestly, the thing that finalized my Madisound purchase was this statement on their site: "Madisound has reduced staff levels to carry on basic business operations. All other employees are on paid leave at this time. [my emphasis]" That deserves my business.
I went with my gut/intuition (which never fails me), and what I know I like, and I bought a pair of FE108EZ's. Honestly, the thing that finalized my Madisound purchase was this statement on their site: "Madisound has reduced staff levels to carry on basic business operations. All other employees are on paid leave at this time. [my emphasis]" That deserves my business.
The FE108e∑ are really nice.
Probably work in the BK12m, but not much bass. Aiko is the one for that. email me if you want the plan.
And if you want a flat-pack, Bob Berner is churning out new flat-pak all the time (in PA). And my goal is to get him so busy doing flat-paks he can’t do anything else :^) Currently shuttered due to the plague, but the US is opening up (far sooner than i think is prudent, but his shop never would have been shut here).
dave
I do need to move the pair pictured on to a new home, but someone will need to come pick them up.
Probably work in the BK12m, but not much bass. Aiko is the one for that. email me if you want the plan.
And if you want a flat-pack, Bob Berner is churning out new flat-pak all the time (in PA). And my goal is to get him so busy doing flat-paks he can’t do anything else :^) Currently shuttered due to the plague, but the US is opening up (far sooner than i think is prudent, but his shop never would have been shut here).
dave
I do need to move the pair pictured on to a new home, but someone will need to come pick them up.
It is amazing that the little FE108e∑ has remained relevant given its 20 year age. A relevation when released… took a whie thou tto figure out how to drag some bass out of it.
dave
dave
Bass response is no longer a determining factor in how I put my system together. But, let me elaborate...
Two of my good friends here in my town are each the leaders of jazz trios/quartets that I go to see play live on a regular basis. Sax, clarinet, upright bass, electric piano, and sometimes a drum kit. The type of music they play is also the type of recorded music that I listen to at home (for the most part). There is simply not much in the way of floor-shaking bass with this type of music.
What matters to me - and, I'm speaking for myself here - is the quality of the lower frequencies, not the quantity. For example, there is a great deal more musical information in the sounds made by an upright (double) bass than just low frequencies: the squeaking of fingers on strings, the vibrations of the strings on the neck, the resonances of the wooden chamber, and the percussive slapping of the player's hand. That is what I really listen to: the playing of the instrument.
It's the same for sax. The vibrating noises made by the reed and the player's breath can be as musically expressive as the notes that leave the bell. And, so on. Some of these extraneous sounds and noises have actually become expressive, musical qualities in their own right: think of the Hammond B3 key click (an electrical design defect), or that "pinch harmonics" made famous by players like Roy Buchanan, Robbie Robertson, and Billy Gibbons.
Anyway, I can fully enjoy listening to recordings of musicians without the need for a lot of deep bass. Besides, I live in an urban townhouse where playing at loud, room-shaking levels is not very neighborly. I'm sure I'll be satisfied with the Sigmas.
Two of my good friends here in my town are each the leaders of jazz trios/quartets that I go to see play live on a regular basis. Sax, clarinet, upright bass, electric piano, and sometimes a drum kit. The type of music they play is also the type of recorded music that I listen to at home (for the most part). There is simply not much in the way of floor-shaking bass with this type of music.
What matters to me - and, I'm speaking for myself here - is the quality of the lower frequencies, not the quantity. For example, there is a great deal more musical information in the sounds made by an upright (double) bass than just low frequencies: the squeaking of fingers on strings, the vibrations of the strings on the neck, the resonances of the wooden chamber, and the percussive slapping of the player's hand. That is what I really listen to: the playing of the instrument.
It's the same for sax. The vibrating noises made by the reed and the player's breath can be as musically expressive as the notes that leave the bell. And, so on. Some of these extraneous sounds and noises have actually become expressive, musical qualities in their own right: think of the Hammond B3 key click (an electrical design defect), or that "pinch harmonics" made famous by players like Roy Buchanan, Robbie Robertson, and Billy Gibbons.
Anyway, I can fully enjoy listening to recordings of musicians without the need for a lot of deep bass. Besides, I live in an urban townhouse where playing at loud, room-shaking levels is not very neighborly. I'm sure I'll be satisfied with the Sigmas.
The FE108e∑ will neve rdo low bass, the efforts taken have been to get the response down low enuff to do those things you enjoy (althou squeaks & some of the other stuff you mention are up into the midrange). The slap of the fundementals of the player’s hand, and the resonances of a wooden chamber typically fall smack into the upper bass (80-160 Hz) and reproduction of those is the goal of “bass extension” with the bigger and more elaborate FE108e∑ enclosures. Aiko might get to 50Hz. Things like the BK12m maybe an octave higher.
It will never move enuff air to be thunderous.
But the midrange of this driver is its strength and, while you can kill that with a badly designed box, it shines thru and is what makes it magic.
dave
It will never move enuff air to be thunderous.
But the midrange of this driver is its strength and, while you can kill that with a badly designed box, it shines thru and is what makes it magic.
dave
WOW, we listen for the exact same things! I am a former musician myself; I like to hear EVERYTHING coming from an instrument; all the harmonics, overtones, etc. This is why I like the P7PHD so much; it doesn't leave anything out; no masking or smearing; just damn near perfect reproduction. I had looked at those same Fostex drivers years ago but that's when I started trying the MA units instead. Glad you found something you are happy with! Right now I am listening to Gary Karr play the Bach Cello Suites on double bass. The sound the bow makes on the strings is VERY obvious; lesser speakers distort this or can't even pull out the inner details at all. Cheers!
The FE108e∑ is intriguing. As is the Aiko enclosure.
How big is it? How hard is it to make from the plans?
For bass wouldn't you veer towards a corner horn? Or does that screw up the glorious midrange?
Lots of pieces but being an Olson/Nagaoka style horn they have no cuts that aren’t 90°. So easy to cut, but assembly needs to be careful and methodical.
132 x 16 x 33 cm (hxwxd).
It looks like it could use some tidying up (new logo, alternative strike plates, and no, or ellisoidal supraBaffle.
http://p10hifi.net/FH/download/Aiko-1v1-plan-231208.pdf
Done long before development of any Woden wall/corner loaded horns. They do work well in Frugel-Horn Mk3. Where are you in Canada?
dave
132 x 16 x 33 cm (hxwxd).
It looks like it could use some tidying up (new logo, alternative strike plates, and no, or ellisoidal supraBaffle.
http://p10hifi.net/FH/download/Aiko-1v1-plan-231208.pdf
Done long before development of any Woden wall/corner loaded horns. They do work well in Frugel-Horn Mk3. Where are you in Canada?
dave
Hmmm... those might actually be brother friendly. Mine lives just up the coast from you. (I'd have to actually talk him into new speakers...)
A round baffle would be easier than an ellipsoidal one. Could one use a thumbnail roundover edging (parabolic) to good effect on it?
I live in Toronto.
By the way, are you looking for a manufacturing partner with a CNC? A friend of mine is in the throws of moving into office space, sharing with a guy who has a CNC shop attached. I have no idea what business is like these days -- it's chaos with COVID -- but... I could check. Just sayin'
A round baffle would be easier than an ellipsoidal one. Could one use a thumbnail roundover edging (parabolic) to good effect on it?
I live in Toronto.
By the way, are you looking for a manufacturing partner with a CNC? A friend of mine is in the throws of moving into office space, sharing with a guy who has a CNC shop attached. I have no idea what business is like these days -- it's chaos with COVID -- but... I could check. Just sayin'
If you brother can come pick up the ones i have they are going out the door CHEAP.
I am definitly looking for people to churn out flat-peaks. Some of them, like the FHs, require a good table saw as well as a CNC and a programmable beam saw does not hurt. Email me if you wan tto discuss the ins and outs.
As i getting out of hardware (no builds since Chris retired) we are now relying on OEMs. One of the points for developing the FHs and making the bar really low for getting into manufacture was to bring back manufacturing from China, and helping cottage industry with good, proven designs (and by now we have. ahge catalog). Bob Berner just got passed the baton in the US, Stefan is doing well in the UK, but there is no-one in Canada ATM.
dave
I am definitly looking for people to churn out flat-peaks. Some of them, like the FHs, require a good table saw as well as a CNC and a programmable beam saw does not hurt. Email me if you wan tto discuss the ins and outs.
As i getting out of hardware (no builds since Chris retired) we are now relying on OEMs. One of the points for developing the FHs and making the bar really low for getting into manufacture was to bring back manufacturing from China, and helping cottage industry with good, proven designs (and by now we have. ahge catalog). Bob Berner just got passed the baton in the US, Stefan is doing well in the UK, but there is no-one in Canada ATM.
dave
Well, it was three months ago yesterday that I ordered the FE108E∑s, so I've had almost that long to play these drivers.
The first noticeable difference between these new FE108E∑'s and my old FE108∑s is the substantial increase in low bass levels. With a lot of the recordings I listen to I've needed to move the Buschhorns out away from the wall so that the bass doesn't overpower the rest of the music - sort of like turning down the volume on a sub.
Second, they sound better the louder I play them. I think the cones and/or surrounds on my 20yr. old FE108∑'s were just worn out. The new drivers have an instant response to certain sounds like drumsticks on rims. The crack of that type of sound can make me jump; it's startling sometimes. Far more dynamic than my old drivers.
So, those are the things I was after: louder and lower bass, and that super-fast and dynamic quality of instant quiet to loud percussion, etc. Of course, it totally depends on the recording. Good recordings - where the range between very quiet and really loud wasn't evened out for FM car radios - are going to sound better through any good drivers. But good recordings sound great through the FE108E∑'s. They're worth the extra money.
David
The first noticeable difference between these new FE108E∑'s and my old FE108∑s is the substantial increase in low bass levels. With a lot of the recordings I listen to I've needed to move the Buschhorns out away from the wall so that the bass doesn't overpower the rest of the music - sort of like turning down the volume on a sub.
Second, they sound better the louder I play them. I think the cones and/or surrounds on my 20yr. old FE108∑'s were just worn out. The new drivers have an instant response to certain sounds like drumsticks on rims. The crack of that type of sound can make me jump; it's startling sometimes. Far more dynamic than my old drivers.
So, those are the things I was after: louder and lower bass, and that super-fast and dynamic quality of instant quiet to loud percussion, etc. Of course, it totally depends on the recording. Good recordings - where the range between very quiet and really loud wasn't evened out for FM car radios - are going to sound better through any good drivers. But good recordings sound great through the FE108E∑'s. They're worth the extra money.
David
GREAT news! I am after the same type of dynamic response but with a totally different driver approach. The ability to accurately follow the input signal is not an easy thing to do for sure! Instantaneous rise and fall times are hard to come by in; even in a tweeter. The quickest rise and fall times are hard to track accurately. It does make a HUGE difference in how natural things like percussion strikes and blows get reproduced with true authority and accuracy...
oldspkrguy, yes, attack is definitely one of the qualities that makes reproduced music seem more "real."
Also, I meant to say two months, not three, in my previous post. Time has been moving slower since teleworking became a way of life. It's felt like three months.
Also, I meant to say two months, not three, in my previous post. Time has been moving slower since teleworking became a way of life. It's felt like three months.