That is the current FE108e∑.
I have the older, discontinued ones, that I bought around 2000:
https://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/speaker_components/pdf/fe108sigma.pdf
Completely different cone design and a Qts of 0.2 for mine.
I have the older, discontinued ones, that I bought around 2000:
https://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/speaker_components/pdf/fe108sigma.pdf
Completely different cone design and a Qts of 0.2 for mine.
Right, that ne was discontinued some decade & a half ago. It will work in FH3 and Aiko (i expect). An adjustment may be necessary with Lancet.
Hav eyou fired them up? Are they fine?
dave
Hav eyou fired them up? Are they fine?
dave
I've been using them almost continuously for nearly 20 years. The cones have yellowed, the surrounds have accumulated dust, pet hair, etc., but they sound as good as they ever did.
Anyway, I'll probably order a pair of Alpair 7.3's from Madisound this week.
The plan is to break in the new 7.3's using my Buschhorn MK II's until I can purchase FH3 flatpacks and build those. That might be a few months down the road.
There's nothing really wrong with my current speakers... but, I just finished building a new SET tube amp last week, and I got the itch to try some new speakers! And, FH3's with 7.3's seem like the way to go.
Thanks,
David
Anyway, I'll probably order a pair of Alpair 7.3's from Madisound this week.
The plan is to break in the new 7.3's using my Buschhorn MK II's until I can purchase FH3 flatpacks and build those. That might be a few months down the road.
There's nothing really wrong with my current speakers... but, I just finished building a new SET tube amp last week, and I got the itch to try some new speakers! And, FH3's with 7.3's seem like the way to go.
Thanks,
David
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Yes, but you said '108EZ', the significance being the 'E', which applies to the current ESigma range, and why we were referring to it. As Dave notes, still good drivers of their type (both models).
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Ah, my mistake! Sorry about that! [Maybe the "E" stands for Epsilon? Though, the current release can't be the fifth version? I have no idea.]
In the late 1990's when there wasn't as much info available online, it was more challenging to research things like full-range drivers and back-loaded horns on your own. I seem to remember that the online info I was able to find back then was pretty much limited to Lowthers (expensive), Fostex, and the RS 40-1197's (I still have a pair). At any rate, the FE108Sigma's - sans "E" - were about the best bang for the buck option I knew of twenty years ago. Ed Schilling's Hornshoppe speakers were certainly an inspiration. But, as I wanted to go the DIY route, a coworker and I each built a pair of Buschhorn MKII's. For whatever reason, I still have mine!
In the late 1990's when there wasn't as much info available online, it was more challenging to research things like full-range drivers and back-loaded horns on your own. I seem to remember that the online info I was able to find back then was pretty much limited to Lowthers (expensive), Fostex, and the RS 40-1197's (I still have a pair). At any rate, the FE108Sigma's - sans "E" - were about the best bang for the buck option I knew of twenty years ago. Ed Schilling's Hornshoppe speakers were certainly an inspiration. But, as I wanted to go the DIY route, a coworker and I each built a pair of Buschhorn MKII's. For whatever reason, I still have mine!
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I stil have some of those 40-1197 (happy to give them away), and a bunch of FE103A (but i have at least one person i have to dig up for a first shot).
Back when Chris & i started, there were not much more than a dozen diy designs (the many Olson/Nagaoka style boxes were stillunderground in Japan), the B-Horns being 2 of those, but with few decent 3” only the bigger had merit over here.
The Frugel-Horns evolved indirectly from the B-Horns thru the Ed-Horn (a basterdized version of the 3” version), but made a HUGE leap when Scott finally had the flash of insight that led to the FH3. That, due almost entirely to push by diyers, has grown to a familiy of 4 and has, i am sure, influenced the bigger Woden Horns. Chris took the side off of an official horn, but it would not be prudent to say much about what we found inside but it was not reassuring.
FR single driver boxes have exploded since the turn of the century, and FRs themselves have dramatically improved, eclipsing and passing the pinnacle we saw in the late 50s, early 60s. Driven largerly by the huge number being churned out for phones, computers, sounders, bluetooth boxes et al. The majority, by a significant margin are all diy, althou the push to see flat-paks and that they are finally catching on will lead to people wanting to purchase complete ones, i hope mostly direct from the cottage industry near where someone is.
Chris, Scott & i went on a mission to fix that lack with hundreds of our designs now out (and even more hiding away unreleased). Not to mention the myriad of others churned out by other diyers all over the world.
dave
Back when Chris & i started, there were not much more than a dozen diy designs (the many Olson/Nagaoka style boxes were stillunderground in Japan), the B-Horns being 2 of those, but with few decent 3” only the bigger had merit over here.
The Frugel-Horns evolved indirectly from the B-Horns thru the Ed-Horn (a basterdized version of the 3” version), but made a HUGE leap when Scott finally had the flash of insight that led to the FH3. That, due almost entirely to push by diyers, has grown to a familiy of 4 and has, i am sure, influenced the bigger Woden Horns. Chris took the side off of an official horn, but it would not be prudent to say much about what we found inside but it was not reassuring.
FR single driver boxes have exploded since the turn of the century, and FRs themselves have dramatically improved, eclipsing and passing the pinnacle we saw in the late 50s, early 60s. Driven largerly by the huge number being churned out for phones, computers, sounders, bluetooth boxes et al. The majority, by a significant margin are all diy, althou the push to see flat-paks and that they are finally catching on will lead to people wanting to purchase complete ones, i hope mostly direct from the cottage industry near where someone is.
Chris, Scott & i went on a mission to fix that lack with hundreds of our designs now out (and even more hiding away unreleased). Not to mention the myriad of others churned out by other diyers all over the world.
dave
I like the new Pluvia 7PHD much better than the Alpair 7P (paper cone); it is much more "musical" to my ears. Transient response is as good as it gets; like a well designed tweeter. BUT, it does roll off above 5KHz or so. The 7P has some ringing and harshness starting about 5KHz or so which I filter out with a custom low pass X/O. In either case; I use a super tweeter starting in the 6 to 7KHz region. Just my 2 cents worth.
I guess i need to fire mine up and listen to them, i was a bit put off by the “voiced for the Japanese” indicator, reminding me of the flak the CHN70 got because of its unusual response.
dave
dave
Well worth the effort; the P7PHD is one of the best sounding wide-band drivers I think I have ever heard. Depending on your electronics and listening habits, etc.; you may need a high frequency, 1st order X/O. I have 2 sets of the P7PHD drivers now. 1 set I am using with the office system and I DO have an X/O low-pass on these. The second set in my main listening system I am NOT using an X/O low-pass. The office system has a $100 class-D amp and $20 tweeters; the main system has a $800 class-AB amp and $200 tweeters. Break-in is the usual MA 100 hours or so.
I have found that tweeters on a FR are all too often counrprodcutie since one can get nowhere near the magic quarter wavelength separation of drivers needed to avoid lobing issues. What tweeters? Price means little. Same with amps.
So if they need a tweeter i would not find then all that acceptable.
I have good to VERY good amps.
dave
So if they need a tweeter i would not find then all that acceptable.
I have good to VERY good amps.
dave
Dave, this is all really fascinating stuff to me. The three of you have done so much work to advance this niche in hifi.
And, it brings back some great memories. In 2000, when I build my BH's, I lived just a few miles from Cary Audio. I didn't have much to spend on hifi stuff, but luckily, some of the guys at Cary had decided to start a low-cost line called Audio Electronic Supply. So, my first tube gear was an AES AE-3 preamp and a PH-1 phono preamp. I ran these into a Decware Zen Select. I remember taking a tour of the Cary Audio workshop where my preamps were built. Everyone I knew at that time thought I was nuts for buying a 2.3 watt tube amp and building my own speakers with only a single 4" driver.
Anyway, it's great to be able to connect with you, Chris, Scott, and everyone else here at diyaudio. Thanks for sharing all of your efforts and knowledge. Even today, most of the people I know still don't "get" the flea-watt/full-range thing, but I was hooked from start.
Here's my latest amp! Less than two weeks old. It even looks like the old AES stuff with the wooden side panels!
And, it brings back some great memories. In 2000, when I build my BH's, I lived just a few miles from Cary Audio. I didn't have much to spend on hifi stuff, but luckily, some of the guys at Cary had decided to start a low-cost line called Audio Electronic Supply. So, my first tube gear was an AES AE-3 preamp and a PH-1 phono preamp. I ran these into a Decware Zen Select. I remember taking a tour of the Cary Audio workshop where my preamps were built. Everyone I knew at that time thought I was nuts for buying a 2.3 watt tube amp and building my own speakers with only a single 4" driver.
Anyway, it's great to be able to connect with you, Chris, Scott, and everyone else here at diyaudio. Thanks for sharing all of your efforts and knowledge. Even today, most of the people I know still don't "get" the flea-watt/full-range thing, but I was hooked from start.
Here's my latest amp! Less than two weeks old. It even looks like the old AES stuff with the wooden side panels!
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The Decware was an early beacon — a relatively inexpensive amplifier using the EL84, a tube that you really have to work hard at to get something bad. We had a pair at the same time we were going thru our Ed-Horn FH1 phase. Our diy version went thru 7 iterations and ended up far better with about 2x the power. An evolution of the RH84 with input coming from Eddie Vaughn. That led to a variation on Eli Dutton’s El Cheapo influenced by ALLen Wright (Class A triode PP, 3.2 w at clipping built on a Scott 299 donor) that is stunning. I do have to hook it up again.
Today the Decware’s are kinda over-priced, and based on some comment sfrom clients, not that well built or designed these days.
And Steve’s(?) penchant for spewing gooble-de-gook and very questionable & flowery prose does not help. Success gone to his head?
dave
Today the Decware’s are kinda over-priced, and based on some comment sfrom clients, not that well built or designed these days.
And Steve’s(?) penchant for spewing gooble-de-gook and very questionable & flowery prose does not help. Success gone to his head?
dave
Yep, that's pretty much the same impression I have of Deckware. Very slick website, and prices to match. But, yes, the Zen was a a good bargain 20yrs. ago. It allowed me to get into tube gear on a budget.
Well, tweeters or not; I HIGHLY recommend you give the P7PHD a try; you won't be disappointed. I am in my mid 60's so a super tweeter is a MUST for me regardless. It doesn't matter what I match it to; midrange, wide-band, full range, etc. In the main system, I am currently using the Fostex T90A; I have tried others as well. Agree, price does not always mean higher quality or high fidelity. (I have several different amplifiers, all very highly rated in their respective price ranges). Lobing isn't too much of an issue for me; I need the extra high output to get the "desired" sound quality and tonal balance. I play around with not only the frequency of the X/O on the tweeter but also the order, Q, polarity, etc. until I get what I feel is the best possible "blend". To each his own I guess. Anyway, try the P7PHD's fullrange; there may be enough HF output to satisfy you without a tweeter. Too good to pass up in my opinion (since you already have them anyway). The MA website shows the P7PHD as the "recommended replacement" for the Alpair 7P (discontinued or soon to be discontinued)...
I have P7HD and A7ms to try out as well.
The T90 is a nice tweeter, i too am in my mid 60s i i don’t need the help. Bit o know your situation. Too much top needed just to hear it?
dave
The T90 is a nice tweeter, i too am in my mid 60s i i don’t need the help. Bit o know your situation. Too much top needed just to hear it?
dave
And, just for the record, I really enjoyed my Zen Select. I ran it into distortion/clipping most nights, and it was always solid.
I can't make any comment on the current products. Truth is, almost all ready-made tube gear is very expensive and out of reach to me. My Tubelab SSE wasn't cheap, but I bought the parts over time which eased the outlay.
I can't make any comment on the current products. Truth is, almost all ready-made tube gear is very expensive and out of reach to me. My Tubelab SSE wasn't cheap, but I bought the parts over time which eased the outlay.
I really like this tweeter; I have a very custom 2nd order HP on it. To my ears; it is a seamless blend to the P7PHD. I spent a great deal of time with the X/O; every possible configuration I could come up with. I would say this combination of drivers is very hard to beat. VERY clean, quick, truthful and non-fatiguing; I can literally listen to these all day long and am constantly amazed at how great they sound! I didn't like the Alpair 7MS much at all; it may be just personal preference but I found the Alpair 7P more musical. The P7PHD is in another world in terms of accuracy than the other MA's I have heard. I think the new rectangular voice coil has a lot to do with this.
Given the physical spacing, one only has to move the head doing the listening to change the response.
But everyting is a compromise and one needs to choose those that work best for them. one of the beauties of diy.
dave
oldspkrguy, thank you for your description if the P7PHD.
I am now leaning towards this driver over the 7.3. One reason is that I prefer a little bit of HF rolloff. I listen in a relatively small room, and I'm sometimes sit closer to my speakers than I normally would. This makes bright recordings become a little irritating after a while.
Also, the Mark Audio description of the P7PHD makes it look like what I'm looking for. I listen to a lot of vintage jazz through a SET tube amp, and a warm driver with emphasized midrange is what I prefer:
"The sound balance is warm, with emphasized upper midrange, and soft treble. Jazz followers in Asia played a role in the final tuning of this driver. Those enthusiasts into vintage and mono recordings using warm tube (valve) amplification may have a particular interest in this driver."
Madisound does have a 45 day return/exchange policy, so I can always go with the 7.3's if I don't like the PHD's, but from what you've said - especially about the good transient response, which is important for me to really enjoy acoustic instruments and drums - I think it will be the better choice.
Thanks,
David
I am now leaning towards this driver over the 7.3. One reason is that I prefer a little bit of HF rolloff. I listen in a relatively small room, and I'm sometimes sit closer to my speakers than I normally would. This makes bright recordings become a little irritating after a while.
Also, the Mark Audio description of the P7PHD makes it look like what I'm looking for. I listen to a lot of vintage jazz through a SET tube amp, and a warm driver with emphasized midrange is what I prefer:
"The sound balance is warm, with emphasized upper midrange, and soft treble. Jazz followers in Asia played a role in the final tuning of this driver. Those enthusiasts into vintage and mono recordings using warm tube (valve) amplification may have a particular interest in this driver."
Madisound does have a 45 day return/exchange policy, so I can always go with the 7.3's if I don't like the PHD's, but from what you've said - especially about the good transient response, which is important for me to really enjoy acoustic instruments and drums - I think it will be the better choice.
Thanks,
David