ScottJ: Of course I notice the psychology of what transpires. That includes the irrationalities of the so-called objectivists. Yes, they consider themselves largely immune since they use math and science, and because they refuse to trust their ears. However, they aren't really immune, it just manifests a bit differently than it does in the so-called subjectists. Its easy to see others, and very, very hard to see oneself. Way it is.
True. I am not completely in sync with Jam's way of listening and what he values as 'good' performance, he could speak to it much better than I can. He has a mental set of criteria that he uses for judging reproduction. He closes his eyes and sits quietly for a minute or two, then he's got it categorized and memorized. He can accurately recall a particular listening experience quite some time later (blind is no problem), as Nelson Pass and Joe Salmon found out (at different times) at Pass Labs.
He tells me that sound stage is the most important thing to get right first, before focusing too much on other things. Of course, the other things need a lot of attention and optimizing too. In other words, its a theory about the ordering or sequencing of reproduction system design problem solving.
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I can only speak for myself and appriciate it when other people speak for themselves rather than quoting sources outside of the thread, that's just me, but I think it's reasonable. TBH, I don't see much evidence of your (if thery are yours) generalisations. I'm even having problems deciding what are my illusions or delusions, hence the question about tinnitus. Bob, for example appears to be offended when it's suggested he could be deluded. Everyone's perceptions of their perceptions appear to be different, what are yours?
In regards to the audio memory part, that’s one of the big ones I have a problem with.......according to these so called experts in the field our auditory memory is useless after seconds/minutes. I find I can remember certain aspects of a sound for sometimes years depending on the impression it made. Not sure if it’s a natural talent or learned behavior but I can dissect, process and for lack of better term record (even compare after the fact)sound in my head. This is hardly delusional because when the same track/sound is heard subsequently (All things the same) it comes across as a match, and if it doesn’t it’s because something has changed......I’ve proven this theory to myself by repeatedly losing a setting and finding myself right back to it(by ear) in the end.
Matt, I don’t get offended by it, I’m sure I’m deluded on many subjects in life but my auditory processing is not one of them. Now one could state (soundbloke) that we are all deluded in this aspect but then my argument again arises that some are always going to be above and below the average curve.
I do take pride in being above average because I have worked hard from a young age to train my hearing in regards to music reproduction........all I ask for is recognition that this possibility does exist, not for all to believe what I say is gospel. I’m still learning.
Matt, I don’t get offended by it, I’m sure I’m deluded on many subjects in life but my auditory processing is not one of them. Now one could state (soundbloke) that we are all deluded in this aspect but then my argument again arises that some are always going to be above and below the average curve.
I do take pride in being above average because I have worked hard from a young age to train my hearing in regards to music reproduction........all I ask for is recognition that this possibility does exist, not for all to believe what I say is gospel. I’m still learning.
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Precisely in tune with what all the decent psychology books say - we're always blind to our own blindspots.
I'm glad I appear to be normal in that regard, I was referring to the generalisations Mark made about "so-called objectivists"
+1
Perhaps also worth pointing out: High intelligence is no guarantee of low disrationality, nor of high objectivity. Highly intelligent people can be more clever than they know at fooling themselves, which as a result can be much harder to untangle than in the less intelligent.
Hence, Abraxalito's sig line. Hopefully, the connection is clear.
Of course they accept in principle that there are delusions and everyone has them. But point to a specific delusion a particular objectivist has then he's absolutely adamant it isn't one that besets him 😛
Glad to hear it 🙂 I don't want to echo what soundbloke said, but........😉
Anyway, he couldn't help me out re my question about tinnitus, can you?
Regarding delusion, according to dictionaries in common use the word delusion tends to imply a state or a manifestation of mental illness. Therefore, in common usage it is not employed to refer to what might be termed 'normal' mis-perceptions.
However, looks like the folks soundbloke works with have redefined the word delusion for their professional communications, much like people do in other fields. Every profession has its own language to facilitate communications between practitioners: Law, medicine, engineering, etc.
So, if using delusion in one particular way (the neurological sense?), then we all may be considered deluded all the time. e.g. Yellow is a mental experience, not the inherent nature of a particular wavelength of electromagnetic radiation: A school bus is not actually yellow, we only see it as yellow.
However, looks like the folks soundbloke works with have redefined the word delusion for their professional communications, much like people do in other fields. Every profession has its own language to facilitate communications between practitioners: Law, medicine, engineering, etc.
So, if using delusion in one particular way (the neurological sense?), then we all may be considered deluded all the time. e.g. Yellow is a mental experience, not the inherent nature of a particular wavelength of electromagnetic radiation: A school bus is not actually yellow, we only see it as yellow.
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I'll stop using the word, at least until I next get into 'conversation' with soundbloke. Hopefully that'll avoid confusion.
Yes, it’s a reference.....just so happens most (if not all) agree with it.
And I’m not talking beer buddies coming over to the living room, I mean on semi professional level. I say ‘semi’ because I’ve never actually been paid for it......I’ve been offered compensation but enjoy it to much to mess it up with money. I really wish my career path could have lead down the audio related trail but think it’s a bit late in life to start.
Matt I know very little about tinnitus but I can tell you from experience that every now and again for as long as I can remember randomly I’ll get what amounts to a test tone in my ears......lasts about 10-20 seconds then peters out. Could be months or years before it comes again and it’s not related to loud noise either.
The tone is always the same pitch and perceived loudness, the strange part though is it feels as though it’s originating from the inner ear and I can feel the actual vibration......whether or not a vibration actually exists in there is up for the delusion debate.
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A school bus is just an icon in my species-specific user interface. I have no idea what actually gives rise to the perception of one. Don Hoffman thinks its possible its a network of conscious agents, his book should be arriving tomorrow. Can't wait 😀
Delusions, by definition, are not objective, so how can an "objectivist" be delusional? Surely anyone who is delusional cannot also be objective.
You talk about "a specific delusion a particular objectivist has". Can you actually name one?