Leaving aesthetics completely aside, it doesn’t seem that your attraction to the KEF LS50 based on sound quality is shared that much by others. There are four posts in this thread alone so far by owners that would prevent me from buying it based on their reported poor sound quality performance regardless of looks or price.
So your claim that you “doubt DIY is possible to beat small monitor like LS50 or LSiM703 at sound quality AND looks” is totally wrong. And make sure you read the post above by ggetzoff where he is saying the same thing in a different way.
It seems pretty certain that with DIY kits you can not only match, but very likely exceed the sound quality of the LS50 at its price or even considerably less.
^There are diy kits and diy kits. I am very critical to loudspeakers that i own or have owned. There are no more than 10 designs of DIY loudspeakers (not just kits but in whole diy community) that i think are worth making.
Most of the diy kits and designs are just 80% finished and could be further improved like LS50 can be - so i don't think that most of published diy kits and loudspeakers are done with such attention to details and performance. Like the speaker kit i linked on the first page of the thread is.
Wast majority of diy speakers hide their true (under)performance behind expensive drivers, exotic veneers, low resolution measurements, heavily smoothed fr curves, lack of high resolution for off axis measurements, untreated driver/cabinet/port resonances etc.
Most of the diy kits and designs are just 80% finished and could be further improved like LS50 can be - so i don't think that most of published diy kits and loudspeakers are done with such attention to details and performance. Like the speaker kit i linked on the first page of the thread is.
Wast majority of diy speakers hide their true (under)performance behind expensive drivers, exotic veneers, low resolution measurements, heavily smoothed fr curves, lack of high resolution for off axis measurements, untreated driver/cabinet/port resonances etc.
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Member
Joined 2006
Wavecor Ardent by Jon Marsh from HTguide
SSA-WG by sdl2112
Kurosawa Koncept System by ET/Jon Marsh
BMR Philharmonitor by Dennis Murphy
DXT-MON series, DXT-WAVE and DiscoM by Alexandar Heissmann
If i think of anything more, i'll write it.
SSA-WG by sdl2112
Kurosawa Koncept System by ET/Jon Marsh
BMR Philharmonitor by Dennis Murphy
DXT-MON series, DXT-WAVE and DiscoM by Alexandar Heissmann
If i think of anything more, i'll write it.
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Member
Joined 2006
Zvu,
It seems you favor speakers which aim for Duelund’s quest for the ultimate crossover:
Nice! Using two really wide bandwidth drivers like the RS225 and B80 can achieve 2/3rds of this using 1st order XO and get a very nice effect of the bass extension is provided by a TL. Still missing stuff above 16kHz, but many people can’t hear above that (me included).
It seems you favor speakers which aim for Duelund’s quest for the ultimate crossover:
Nice! Using two really wide bandwidth drivers like the RS225 and B80 can achieve 2/3rds of this using 1st order XO and get a very nice effect of the bass extension is provided by a TL. Still missing stuff above 16kHz, but many people can’t hear above that (me included).
There's a thread in one of the diy forums where the poster redesigns the crossover. Unfortunately I cant remember where i saw it. I was surprised to see the measurements, which didn't look so great. I did listen to them in a shop once but it wasn't an optimal setup. Nevertheless, the measurements appeared consistent with my listening impressions, which were that the speaker sounded small and really lacked low end. I also heard the active ones and that was a different story. I liked them a lot. Still, I wouldn't buy them. Much preferred the two way that was slightly higher priced (r300 maybe?. it was awhile ago).
I'm trying not to favor any particular topology but end result. Ideally one would make two exact pairs of loudspeakers and use high quality DSP and DAC's to determine in AB test what crossover topology he prefers. Then make it passive if that is the final goal or leave it active. I'm inclined to believe that, when you make your loudspeakers good (measure low distortion and smooth on and off axis (regardless of the directivity wanted), when you take care of the resonances of cabinet-drivers-port) all you are left with is personal preference. The sound of materials cones and domes are made of and crossover topologies 🙂 Mr. Heissmann makes his usual 24dB/o slopes and it seems to work well for him.
Definitely. There are at least two rooms at Warsaw Audio Video show where DIY speakers are presented. There are also smaller manufacturers. Presented my speakers as well.
I never heard anything that I'd buy as a product instead of KEF R, Polk LSiM or BW 682 at this price point (e.g. under $1000).
To design and make myself - yes, there are interesting designs. To buy as a product - no.
Over several posts now, here is a summary of the discussion:
First you said:
“I doubt DIY is possible to beat small monitor like LS50 or LSiM703 at sound quality…”
“There is no financial reason to DIY speakers similar to LS50.”
ggetzoff responded:
“Then you haven't heard a properly designed DIY loudspeaker then.”
Then I said:
It seems pretty certain that with DIY kits you can not only match, but very likely exceed the sound quality of the LS50 at its price or even considerably less.
And now you are saying:
I never heard anything that I'd buy as a product instead of KEF R, Polk LSiM or BW 682 at this price point (e.g. under $1000). To design and make myself - yes, there are interesting designs.
So, just to be clear:
Are you saying that it is or is not possible to build a DIY speaker that will match or exceed the sound quality of the best $1,000 commercial products for less?
Worth bearing in mind that for Kef and their distributors to make any money the material costs (drivers, cabinet, paint, posts, crossover, port etc.) less labour need to be 10-20% of the retail price.
Kef are interesting as they manufacture their own drivers whereas other either base their speakers on commonly available drivers (scanspeak, seas etc.) but may get then tweaked at the factory. For example PMC and ATC used a relatively cheap Peerless tweeter around $40 for their mid range speakers (c.$2500) and my $2000 active monitors use a Vifa poly cone woofer that is around $50.
A DIY example -
The Shadzi-Bagby Ceramicos use the SB ceramic CAC/CDC range, total driver cost (2x8”, 1x5”, 1” dome) is around $750 plus wood etc. and crossover parts means they can be made for around $1250 (low crossover part count, all 2nd order). Now the Revel Performa F228Be has the same bass and mid drivers but a slightly more expensive tweeter and these retail for $10000.
Therefore I would suggest that with a budget of $1000 for a pair of two way book shelf speakers you should be able to make some DIY speakers, from a renown designer that should challenge commercially available ones in the $2500-5000 range. The trick is picking the right designer and the ones that your ears like based on data and reviews as there is no where to audition them.
Kef are interesting as they manufacture their own drivers whereas other either base their speakers on commonly available drivers (scanspeak, seas etc.) but may get then tweaked at the factory. For example PMC and ATC used a relatively cheap Peerless tweeter around $40 for their mid range speakers (c.$2500) and my $2000 active monitors use a Vifa poly cone woofer that is around $50.
A DIY example -
The Shadzi-Bagby Ceramicos use the SB ceramic CAC/CDC range, total driver cost (2x8”, 1x5”, 1” dome) is around $750 plus wood etc. and crossover parts means they can be made for around $1250 (low crossover part count, all 2nd order). Now the Revel Performa F228Be has the same bass and mid drivers but a slightly more expensive tweeter and these retail for $10000.
Therefore I would suggest that with a budget of $1000 for a pair of two way book shelf speakers you should be able to make some DIY speakers, from a renown designer that should challenge commercially available ones in the $2500-5000 range. The trick is picking the right designer and the ones that your ears like based on data and reviews as there is no where to audition them.
Check out the Revolution XT Tannoy series...
check out he r Revolution XT Mini which has a 4 inch woofer and a 3/4" tweeter horn loaded DC (dual concentric) and the XT6 which has a 6" woofer and a 1" horn loaded DC tweeter. Of the two models (I own both) the XT mini integrates noticeably better. The do require very good non resonant stands and need proper stand interface and set up in room but I can assure you that when set up correctly they are stunning and can out perform many much more expensive mini monitors such as ProAc Aniversary Super Tablets and ProAc Response DB2 and very many others. IMO the very finest DC Tannoy has ever produced at any price with the very best time alignment and with exceptional stage and image.
check out he r Revolution XT Mini which has a 4 inch woofer and a 3/4" tweeter horn loaded DC (dual concentric) and the XT6 which has a 6" woofer and a 1" horn loaded DC tweeter. Of the two models (I own both) the XT mini integrates noticeably better. The do require very good non resonant stands and need proper stand interface and set up in room but I can assure you that when set up correctly they are stunning and can out perform many much more expensive mini monitors such as ProAc Aniversary Super Tablets and ProAc Response DB2 and very many others. IMO the very finest DC Tannoy has ever produced at any price with the very best time alignment and with exceptional stage and image.
the ls50 is the most overatted speaker on the market. tone is off, bass is boomy. only good aspect is its imaging capabilities.
To your point, here is a link to a recent article that says exactly the same thing. Manufacturers’ cost for a pair of speakers that sell at retail for $1000 is about $125 to $175.
How Profit Margins Work in the AV Business and Why You Should Care
And when you break that down and take out labor and overhead, the actual material cost is probably less than $100. And that’s for two speakers, so it’s only $50 each. Then take out the cost for the cabinets, finishing, and crossovers and it’s probably down to about $25 to $30 for the drivers.
For a DIY build budget of $1000 you can take away $100 for wood and finishing materials, leaving $900 for the drivers and crossovers. For that kind of money you can get some outstanding drivers that will blow away any commercial products that sell for $1000 per pair.
The point is, those of us that design and / or build our own loudspeakers may very likely not have the same time and budget constraints that a manufacturer does For example, I’ve been designing and building for almost 30 years. I first started modifying commercial products, then on to designing my own, like many of us on the forum. I also still purchase modern loudspeakers, some very expensive. On top of that, I travel to audio shows and listen a lot to a wide and varied range of designs. Therefore, I spend a lot of time listening and voicing my designs with good benchmarks (high quality IEMs are my baseline) as examples. I rarely hear a commercial loudspeaker that I think needs no real improvement. Or, I think it achieves good performance but at an unacceptable price.
Currently I have two loudspeakers that I listen to: a $10k Martin Logan ESL and an all SB Acoustics 2.5 way that I designed. I can assure you that my loudspeaker easily competes with it. It’s a different type and I have no desire to build an electrostatic loudspeaker, so I bought one.
My next DIY design is a two-way monitor: Hiquphon OW1 and an SB Midwoofer, loaded by a PR. Preliminary listening says that’s it’s a phenomenal loudspeaker. I would put it up against anything on the market. It will be voiced for absolute neutrality in my environment. Which brings up another point: I can tailor the woofer load my amps and my room.
There’s a whole world of guys like us designing and building really, really good stuff for minimal dollars.
Cheers,
Greg
Currently I have two loudspeakers that I listen to: a $10k Martin Logan ESL and an all SB Acoustics 2.5 way that I designed. I can assure you that my loudspeaker easily competes with it. It’s a different type and I have no desire to build an electrostatic loudspeaker, so I bought one.
My next DIY design is a two-way monitor: Hiquphon OW1 and an SB Midwoofer, loaded by a PR. Preliminary listening says that’s it’s a phenomenal loudspeaker. I would put it up against anything on the market. It will be voiced for absolute neutrality in my environment. Which brings up another point: I can tailor the woofer load my amps and my room.
There’s a whole world of guys like us designing and building really, really good stuff for minimal dollars.
Cheers,
Greg
Hi Greg, may I ask what IEMs are your reference? I get where you are coming from and couldn’t agree more.
Regarding this thread, as others have said, there are so many better options than LS50. I would take any of the Bagby designs. I have the Continuums and they are very very good.
Regarding this thread, as others have said, there are so many better options than LS50. I would take any of the Bagby designs. I have the Continuums and they are very very good.