yeah, i also own the continuum and had the ls50 for a while. I think the kef ls50 is overall better technically, but i think id still pick the continuum over the ls50.
that doesnt say much about the quality of ls50; there are many better 5" 2 way around the same price that i think is much better.
fair enough. I don't really get the hype about the LS50 both by the nay sayers or the cheer leaders.
I have a soft spot for the Continuum, but I do the like them with subs for a lot of music as the little mid runs outta gas pretty fast. I've kept the LS50 around with plans to try some of the modified crossover many have come up with but I've not gotten around to it yet.
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I would second the Continuum and the SB Revolution Kit and also throw in another contender, again based on the satori woofer: CSS P215 Kit
SHOP | css-audio
The satori 5" woofer is a great driver.
SHOP | css-audio
The satori 5" woofer is a great driver.
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Real mark-up for speakers?
Only 10-20% of the retail price covers all materials? This seems unreasonably low... or is it?The old rule I'd read was speakers sell at about 100% markup. Well, that would be 50% of the price at whole sale, so that would leave the wholesaler (presumably, manufacturer) potentially 100%+ profit margin. But, no wait, we have to include labor, plus the "u" for labor if it were built in the UK
, advertising, shipping, cost of design. Allowing for those, the costs of components and mark-ups don't sound so crazy after all
Only 10-20% of the retail price covers all materials? This seems unreasonably low... or is it?The old rule I'd read was speakers sell at about 100% markup. Well, that would be 50% of the price at whole sale, so that would leave the wholesaler (presumably, manufacturer) potentially 100%+ profit margin. But, no wait, we have to include labor, plus the "u" for labor if it were built in the UK
, advertising, shipping, cost of design. Allowing for those, the costs of components and mark-ups don't sound so crazy after allI'd like to hear the SB revolution and the P215's. Jeff(RIP) said the Revolutions were a substantial step up from the Continuum.
atc and p3esr are at the same level, just different strenghts and weakness. I ended up keeping the atc
15 to 20 years ago, most high-end speakers used off-the-shelf drivers. I could look at a ProAc, Monitor Audio, PSB, Snell, or Thiel and easilly identify the drivers as Seas, ScanSpeak, Vifa, Focal, Dynaudio, Audax, etc. So it was easy to compare the cost of the drivers with the retail cost of the speaker.
The ratio was almost always between 5 and 10 times the cost of the drivers. Complex cabinets drove the ratio up, sophisticated cabinet finishes (high-gloss rosewood veneer, etc) drove the ratio up. Speakers made in the UK or Europe had a higher ratio than ones made in the US, and Canadian built speakers had a lower ratio... Some speakers had such elaborate cabinet construction that the ratio was very high... Wilson and Dunlavy (Duntech) come to mind... But those are the exception.
It is harder to do such comparisons now. Speaker manufacturers now specify enough cosmetic changes to their drivers that it is harder to identify them. And driver makers are more willing to make special runs of drivers for manufacturers.
But where we can identify drivers, the ratio is still valid. Speakers built in China are closer to a ratio of 5... Speakers built in the US or Europe are closer to 10.
So how much does a cabinet cost to build ?... If you are KEF or Harmon I do not know. If you are a small operation that builds 30 pairs of speakers a month, I think I can guess. There is also packaging and shipping costs. Distributor and retailer markups.
When I look at a really well done commercial speaker like the Revel Performa F228Be, I see about $1200 to $1400 worth of drivers, and the speaker sells for about $10,000... A ratio of 7 or 8. I also see a very well done cabinet, one that would take me many hours of labor to duplicate... and a crossover integration that is first rate. If I had to build an equivalent speaker, and sell it for a profit... I doubt I could sell it for $10k. I would be working for less than minimum wage...
So yes, speaker cost a lot more than their raw materials, but most of them are not unreasonable.
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Wolf,
This is a hybrid with an OB MTM on top and a sealed dual woofer on the bottom. It has received excellent reviews, at least on some forums.
Where do you think it comes up short? I'm interested, because it's one of several on my short list to build soon.
Thanks.
Where I think it comes up short is its relationship with Danny Richie, as well as his typical voicing. His stuff tends to not take care of midbass breakup, and therefore the upper mids are a bit shouty. He does not tend to damp or brace the boxes enough either, and therefore the box coloration seeps into the mix.
He's supposedly touted as the 'bee's knees' to audio and 'critically acclaimed/award winning', but I can't see/hear how he is supposed to be that gifted in my experience with his products.
Don't let my bias dissuade you from a purchase if that is what you have your heart set on, as my bias against him likely veils my impressions a bit. His results and voicing are not akin to my MO.
Later,
Wolf
He's supposedly touted as the 'bee's knees' to audio and 'critically acclaimed/award winning', but I can't see/hear how he is supposed to be that gifted in my experience with his products.
Don't let my bias dissuade you from a purchase if that is what you have your heart set on, as my bias against him likely veils my impressions a bit. His results and voicing are not akin to my MO.
Later,
Wolf
Wolf. Thanks for the input. I’m trying to gather as much information as possible on this speaker in order to decide whether to build it or not.
This particular design apparently was not a product initially offered by Danny Richie at GR Research. There was a company called AV123 that was fairly successful selling this design as a finished product about 10 years ago. There were some issues with the person heading the company and they went out of business. Danny bought up a very large inventory of the components, sans cabinets, and that is what he is selling now as the X-Statik kits.
It seems to be a very good deal. Only $400 for all the drivers and prebuilt crossovers needed to build a pair of these speakers.
I’ve looked at the drawings for the sealed woofer base and it seems well braced, at least to me. The upper MTM is Open Baffle so there is no need for internal bracing of it at all.
Danny appears to have an almost cult like following. It’s hard to determine whether that is good or bad. So, I’m interested in this kit, but still a little wary. Danny also leaves me a little uneasy by pushing his tube connectors and claiming that they improve the sound. There is nothing in electrical engineering theory that can possible support his claim.
Here is link to the review of this speaker from the Absolute Sound in 2009.
AV123 X-Statik Loudspeaker | The Absolute Sound
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@wolf_teeth
"That's a Danny Richie design- meh"
if danny richie is "meh" then who's similar design is not meh ??
@classicalfan
if you do build the x-statik's please share you results/finds, as i am also interested in making a pair of hybrid's, they dont haveto be this design thou.
ps never new about AV123, i thought they were gr research designed. well spotted.
gaz
"That's a Danny Richie design- meh"
if danny richie is "meh" then who's similar design is not meh ??
@classicalfan
if you do build the x-statik's please share you results/finds, as i am also interested in making a pair of hybrid's, they dont haveto be this design thou.
ps never new about AV123, i thought they were gr research designed. well spotted.
gaz
An RS driver design that doesn't get mentioned often, is one John Hollander did over on PETT. It won it's class a few years back:
Aperivox, 2014 MWAF -
Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum
Unfortunately, this no longer reflects the 'mini-monitor' approach of the OP.
The M165 and M165X are GR Research drivers, and always have been. I was pretty sure GR and AV123 were connected somehow.
Later,
Wolf
Aperivox, 2014 MWAF -
Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum
Unfortunately, this no longer reflects the 'mini-monitor' approach of the OP.
The M165 and M165X are GR Research drivers, and always have been. I was pretty sure GR and AV123 were connected somehow.
Later,
Wolf
Paul Carmody's Sunflowers hybrid are very similar. OB MTM over an enclosed woofer base that can be either ported or sealed. They also have received very good reviews.
Sunflower [Redux] - undefinition
The X-Statik kit includes prebuilt crossovers, whereas you have to build them yourself for the Sunflowers. Adding the XO parts to the Sunflower drivers looks like it will cost about $100 more than the X-Statik. That's just a guess. Not a detailed pricing exercise.
I have been trying to decide between these two, but still haven't made up my mind. Let me know if you can find a good reason for one over the other.
Wolf is right. We have gone off track from the OP, but this may still be valuable to some of us.
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