It wasn't the chlorhexidine, just the holistic stuff. Yes, I think we should try to stick to "accepted" science. If you want to propose something strange that's fine but I'd be prepared to defend it with at least a preprint paper from a semi-credible source.
Immunity does not always mean you cant catch it again. One can be reinfected but with only minor symptoms. I know about immunity as I breed dogs for a long time and have knowledge on Parvo and corona vaccinations. Even vaccinated dogs can still catch parvo but it wont kill them instead they will just have mild symptoms that usually dissipate quickly due to the antibodies already produced. Unless the strain mutates very quickly then they can have major symptoms again which include death.
Ok if you only want science and not truth then I understand. For example a lot of other treatments for cancer besides radiation and chemo that have PROVEN to work but not acceptable in main stream health science.
My objective is only to help but if you don't want the truth then ok.
Maybe I should start my own covid topic and say anything is acceptable if your objective is trying to help stop spreading and finding cure for virus.
Without deciding one way or the other.. Speaking as a citizen for whom medicines are covered federally, I don't see it that way. Our hospitals are also based on conventional medicine.
I thought I done told you to haul that water and chop that wood. Instead I find you lollygaggin' around here. 😀
Wood's done. But I drank the water after that. Then these guys walked up arguing away.
DMLBES,
-Chris
DMLBES,
Now you're getting the picture. The truth according to you is a minority viewpoint. Not accepted by mainstream science because it has not been proved or backed up by proper scientific methods. The only way to have safeguards and arrive at the truth is by controlling everything but the variable you are testing. If you can't do that, the experiment is pointless and proves zero. It also cannot be repeated later or by another team. So loose observations without controls is a waste of time and generally leads to incorrect conclusions. This is what you are bringing to the table.
-Chris
Ok lets talk about the Malaria drug since it relates to covid19 do you think it works or it don't work?
We need some more data from trials with controls. It probably works to some degree. It won't be a magic bullet. We need to see if it prevents the development of severe disease if given early in the course. What little data has been published does not indicate it's going to be effective for saving people who have developed ARDS.
Opinion is never outweighed by fact:
COVID-19: The bitter truth about using hydroxychloroquine as a preventive drug - India Today Insight News
‘This is insane!’ Many scientists lament Trump’s embrace of risky malaria drugs for coronavirus | Science | AAAS
Coronavirus: Assam Doctor Dies Allegedly After Taking Anti-Malarial Drug As COVID-19 Prevention
There is a path for it to work, which is neither guaranteed to be safe, nor effective.
Why soap is so effective at destroying Covid-19 (and many other pathogens)
The science of soap – here’s how it kills the coronavirus | Pall Thordarson | Opinion | The Guardian
There was also a very good explanation - with diagrams - in tne economist a few days ago, but I can’t find it at the minute.
The science of soap – here’s how it kills the coronavirus | Pall Thordarson | Opinion | The Guardian
There was also a very good explanation - with diagrams - in tne economist a few days ago, but I can’t find it at the minute.
Do you (or Chris, or anyone else) know how the drug is supposed to work? See this video: YouTube for one possible treatment pathway - which requires it be used in a specific combination with other drugs, and in specific doses depending on patient condition, disease progress and overall prognosis. None of which have been established as yet, because the disease is in its earliest stages. We haven't even fully understood the disease, let alone its treatment.
The anti-malarial therapy requires a solid understanding of the patient condition and their expected response. It is only recommended (in India) in two instances -as a possible preventive measure for healthcare professionals, and a last resort for patients with no other hope.
A hospital in India had treated two Italian patients of very advanced age with a combination of HIV and malaria drugs. Both ended up cured, but the older male patient subsequently passed away of a heart attack, much like the doctor who died after taking chloroquine.
I think you need to stop reading what you want to and try to understand the scientific point of view, which is what this thread is about. We don't want either politics or unproven remedies bandied about here. Or anywhere else, for that matter. The best option is to not catch it in the first place, which requires social distancing, staying at home, regular handwashing and proper cough etiquette.
Relapse or the sensitivity on the rt-PCR is sufficiently low that there's going to be a lot of cases that are clearing the virus that show a negative test before they really really hit a negative test. That's been the reason for the 2-negatives with 48 hours separating rule.
I don't want to get tangled up with him... but there are two different possible mechanisms of action as far as I know. I am not a doctor, virologist, molecular biologist, etc. so please do your own fact checking of anything I say. I just pulled a couple links I found very quickly that may or may not be helpful to describe the mechanisms.
1. Endosomal acidification inhibitor (viral entry)
Targeting endosomal acidification by chloroquine analogs as a promising strategy for the treatment of emerging viral diseases
2. Zinc ionophore
Chloroquine Is a Zinc Ionophore
Antiviral Activity of the Zinc Ionophores Pyrithione and Hinokitiol against Picornavirus Infections | Journal of Virology
From what I have read, my personal opinion is that I would pass if offered Chloroquine, but would take Hydroxychloroquine if offered. The safety profile of HCQ (Plaquenil) is better and so is the efficacy in-vitro. The combination with Azithromycin is potentially problematic because both drugs can lengthen QT interval. If you have cardiac issues or a predisposition then I would avoid both. If I had to guess, I would say that the data coming out later this month will show it does decrease viral load / shorten time to clear the virus. The big question is, does that actually help? If early administration prevents the development of pneumonia, then I'd have to think it becomes a primary treatment. Since the predictors of mortality are looking like NLR and levels of cytokines like IL-6, I would not put money on HCQ working for patients already in the ICU. It does have immunomodulatory effects, which are the primary target in Lupus and RA, but I lack the background to come to any conclusion on whether or not this mechanism is useful here.
The addition of Azithromycin is interesting. It's very well known as a macrolide antibiotic. It has shown antiviral and strong anti-inflammatory effects in studies, though. Who knows which of those effects are useful here. I actually Googled and found papers on the anti-inflammatory effects in January after I was prescribed it for an ear infection. I have very mild eczema most of the time during the winter. I took the Azithromycin and on day two I noticed it cleared up almost like magic. It stayed in remission for about a month after that.
I saw no conclusions in your post only facts. But here I go guessing what I suppose your conclusions are. What is the panic about?
SARS-CoV-2 is between 7 and 34 times deadlier. That means if we treated it without panic in other words like the common flue. 5 000 000 people would die (if we take a conservative factor of 10) Already some projections are predicting 200 000 deaths in the USA alone WITH measures taken. While this is normally between 20 and 60 thousand.
Coronavirus update: Surpassing 9/11; 240K projected deaths; Dow slumps
2019-2020 U.S. Flu Season: Preliminary Burden Estimates | CDC
Well said. Even if you ignore mortality rates, the hospitalization rate is even worse relative to Influenza last time I checked. When the hospitals are totally overwhelmed, all kinds of conditions that would normally be treated can be fatal. Better not get into a car accident.
I snipped out the rest of your post for brevity.
I think there are still some unknowns about the exact effect of CQ/HCQ on this specific virus or its infection mechanism. Which is what the trials are for. The HIV drug mechanisms are slightly better understood, they inhibit the production of proteins that allow the virus to replicate within the ovuli.
The problem with both CQ and HCQ are their fairly devastating effects on the body. I remember having malaria medicine as a child (as a preventive) and I also remember being knocked out for two straight days. The inoculation was given on Friday so that the kids could take a few days to recover from the dose, and meals were served in the hostel accommodation rather than in the mess.
I can only imagine the effects of the drug on a sick adult. Managing the side effects becomes a real challenge. Anyway I don't think we'll be talking about these two unless the medical community gives some credence to their use, which so far they haven't.
You're right that the side effect profile is not great, but HCQ is probably manageable short term. It's taken daily by a lot of RA patients.
I am not confident that the HIV protease inhibitors will work. They were specifically designed for HIV and they don't work as well in vitro. The short term side effects might be worse, too. Some early peeks via preprint did not look promising either compared to control. Can't remember where I found the links, but we'll know soon enough. In my original post I linked to a podcast - one episode with Dr. Daniel Griffin touched on the lopinavir/ritonavir combo and he was unhappy with the amount of vomiting it was causing. Unpleasant for the patient but dangerous for the clinicians since SARS-CoV-2 is present in the GI tract.
Etiquette
1. I was taught as a child that if I sneeze unexpectedly (and can't take out a tissue/handkerchief in time) to do it into my hand and immediately to go and wash up
2. If I cough or hiccough or yawn, to cover my mouth (basic manners)
3. Standing in a queue - leave a moderate distance between yourself and the person ahead (should I sneeze, cough etc. it won't spray the person ahead)
I can go on with basic etiquette, but to a lot of people (my country, can't comment about others) there is no longer respect for others, much less the community. There is a prevalence of "I don't care", "I am entitled", "I have rights" and a total lack of respect.
I can only presume that this is happening in other countries too. And this could (and probably is) likely to be part of the reason for the rapid spread of diseases.
Purely a social commentary from my personal perspective:
1. I was taught as a child that if I sneeze unexpectedly (and can't take out a tissue/handkerchief in time) to do it into my hand and immediately to go and wash up
2. If I cough or hiccough or yawn, to cover my mouth (basic manners)
3. Standing in a queue - leave a moderate distance between yourself and the person ahead (should I sneeze, cough etc. it won't spray the person ahead)
I can go on with basic etiquette, but to a lot of people (my country, can't comment about others) there is no longer respect for others, much less the community. There is a prevalence of "I don't care", "I am entitled", "I have rights" and a total lack of respect.
I can only presume that this is happening in other countries too. And this could (and probably is) likely to be part of the reason for the rapid spread of diseases.
I agree that a lot of people are not considerate and hygenic, but this is a highly infectious virus. I will assume if I am in the same room with an infected person just breathing then I have a good chance of getting it.
I grew up in your beautiful country. And in certain aspects of life there. I just love the respect that there is for others. I find people generally courteous and friendly in South Africa compared to Europe. Anyway...its not that I disagree with your statement...Just wanted to add my own experience.
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