I've been measuring various Op Amps (Burson V6 vivid / OPA2107 / OPA1642 / OPA2156 / LME49720 / LM833N) with Audio Precision APX555.
The objective measurements can be found here.
Overview:
THD+N = f Hz ALL ROUND1 OP AMPS real zoomed2.png
THD+N = f Hz ALL ROUND1 OP AMPS V2.png
Sighted subjective comparison was also performed. (blind testing still pending).
Yes, the V6 burson has higher distortion at highest output levels (above ~5Vrms), which realistically is never used in my case.
I have yet to perform better measurements and identify criteria that could correlate with my subjective impressions.
The objective measurements can be found here.
Overview:
THD+N = f Hz ALL ROUND1 OP AMPS real zoomed2.png
THD+N = f Hz ALL ROUND1 OP AMPS V2.png
Sighted subjective comparison was also performed. (blind testing still pending).
Yes, the V6 burson has higher distortion at highest output levels (above ~5Vrms), which realistically is never used in my case.
I have yet to perform better measurements and identify criteria that could correlate with my subjective impressions.
Attachments
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No NE5532 or LM4562 comparison? (Thanks for the hard data, BTW, its good to see this).
(And 1/f noise measurements (noise spectrum) would be nice, not sure I've seen those for Burson's)
Oh, for the THD measurements what is the test circuit? Common-mode distortion only shows up in non-inverting
topologies, and is often important.
(And 1/f noise measurements (noise spectrum) would be nice, not sure I've seen those for Burson's)
Oh, for the THD measurements what is the test circuit? Common-mode distortion only shows up in non-inverting
topologies, and is often important.
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To clarify, I am not measuring the Op Amp or its specifications itself, but rather how it behaves in my specific headphone amplifier circuit.
LM4562 is said to be basically identical to LME49720. I ll look around, I think I have the 2 that you mentioned left somewhere.
As for the circuit topology, it is a nested voltage gain with mostfet output transistors.
For schematics, see my blog (signature) or Diyaudio link:
"WHAMMY" Pass DIY headphone amp guide
I'm just learning to do some proper measurements. I am still looking for the equivalent of a waterfall, but for the attack as well, using audio precision.
By the way, I would not do the full blind test (due to coronavirus), but for the 3 DIP8 package Op Amps I got, putting a sticker with number on them listening and then revealing the chip behind the number works out nicely.
So far 2 rounds of 3 op amp blind test, I had 100% recognition for each. I'll have to ask a friend/colleague for blind test including DIP8/SOIC/V6 vivid.
LM4562 is said to be basically identical to LME49720. I ll look around, I think I have the 2 that you mentioned left somewhere.
As for the circuit topology, it is a nested voltage gain with mostfet output transistors.
For schematics, see my blog (signature) or Diyaudio link:
"WHAMMY" Pass DIY headphone amp guide
I'm just learning to do some proper measurements. I am still looking for the equivalent of a waterfall, but for the attack as well, using audio precision.
By the way, I would not do the full blind test (due to coronavirus), but for the 3 DIP8 package Op Amps I got, putting a sticker with number on them listening and then revealing the chip behind the number works out nicely.
So far 2 rounds of 3 op amp blind test, I had 100% recognition for each. I'll have to ask a friend/colleague for blind test including DIP8/SOIC/V6 vivid.
Automated ABX testing requires two copies of the circuit under test, and can be revealing, and doesn't have the same problems with social distancing.
So do you put the stickers on blindfolded? Its a plausible approach if the packages have identical pins and package shape detailing, but if there's a discernable difference in appearance or feel it leaks information and breaks the blind-ness. The brain cannot ignore any clue presented to it.
So do you put the stickers on blindfolded? Its a plausible approach if the packages have identical pins and package shape detailing, but if there's a discernable difference in appearance or feel it leaks information and breaks the blind-ness. The brain cannot ignore any clue presented to it.
I actually wanted to measure this, but could not find it in audio precision software.
Also, having full fft is nice, but id rather have the dedicated graph gor imd for example, and should do a big summary table.
Still rocking the v6 vivid on my WHAMMY at the moment. I ket one vivid sample in the box, and the other one fully burned in. I plan to do some comparison at some point.
Also, having full fft is nice, but id rather have the dedicated graph gor imd for example, and should do a big summary table.
Still rocking the v6 vivid on my WHAMMY at the moment. I ket one vivid sample in the box, and the other one fully burned in. I plan to do some comparison at some point.
Burson Playmate V6 Vivid & Classic vs OPA1612
Hi,
In the recent past my Playmate is completed with two V6 Classic opas.
First of all I choose the configuration/position of V6 Classic and Vivid opas, to decide which one is better to my taste. After that I compare the best setup with the sound of OPA1612 in the same position.
I find the fact true, that as you can peel an onion’s layers off, you can get better and better quality with changing the components and get even closer to the reproduction of a live concert.
Using better and better operational amplifiers (OPAs), linear power supplies etc. we can get further in the layers of the onion, and get higher quality of the music.
Just take a look at my perceptions how can I hear the different configurations (LowPass stage, I/V stage)
LP: Classic – I/V: Vivid
Neutral and dim, almost dry tones. Less interesting sounding, whereas very precise, and I like the violin a lot.
LP: Vivid – I/V: Classic
Warmer and fuller tones. The sound of the instruments shows up much stereophonic
LP: OPA1612 – I/V6 Classic
Rambling parts, less defined bass appears, like the musicians play far, behind a curtain. The pale and toneless sound sift from a glass shade. It’s like the voices from a closed place and you wants to set them free to change the boring tones to much more live-like experience.
Interesting that, I did like OPA1612 rather with the Vivid.
It seems to be Burson opa - , the V6 Classic and Vivid set a higher standard
SMPS vs linear power supply
As compared to the linear one, the music become much boring and also slower, and the saxophone crows.
We can hear a weightless, undynamic, slushy sound, slurred parts from a curtain-covered distant stage.
The linear power supply provide a much audiophile quality by far, as a much detailed and tight, live concert experience-like music. The bass, drums, and the bass guitar parts are well separated from each other, although the musicians are at close quarters.
I would like to attract your attention to the fact, that the differences showed up after contrasting the two power supplies Also with the commercial power supply only, Playmate is a worthy of note favorite of mine. To summarize, the presence of the linear power supply serve a better music quality
Summary
With the Burson V6 Vivid and Classic opa-s and a linear power supply, we can manage to get hold of a DAC , a source of a delightful sound as a Burson Playmate!
Thank you for your attention!
Hi,
In the recent past my Playmate is completed with two V6 Classic opas.
First of all I choose the configuration/position of V6 Classic and Vivid opas, to decide which one is better to my taste. After that I compare the best setup with the sound of OPA1612 in the same position.
I find the fact true, that as you can peel an onion’s layers off, you can get better and better quality with changing the components and get even closer to the reproduction of a live concert.
Using better and better operational amplifiers (OPAs), linear power supplies etc. we can get further in the layers of the onion, and get higher quality of the music.
Just take a look at my perceptions how can I hear the different configurations (LowPass stage, I/V stage)
LP: Classic – I/V: Vivid
Neutral and dim, almost dry tones. Less interesting sounding, whereas very precise, and I like the violin a lot.
LP: Vivid – I/V: Classic
Warmer and fuller tones. The sound of the instruments shows up much stereophonic
LP: OPA1612 – I/V6 Classic
Rambling parts, less defined bass appears, like the musicians play far, behind a curtain. The pale and toneless sound sift from a glass shade. It’s like the voices from a closed place and you wants to set them free to change the boring tones to much more live-like experience.
Interesting that, I did like OPA1612 rather with the Vivid.
It seems to be Burson opa - , the V6 Classic and Vivid set a higher standard
SMPS vs linear power supply
As compared to the linear one, the music become much boring and also slower, and the saxophone crows.
We can hear a weightless, undynamic, slushy sound, slurred parts from a curtain-covered distant stage.
The linear power supply provide a much audiophile quality by far, as a much detailed and tight, live concert experience-like music. The bass, drums, and the bass guitar parts are well separated from each other, although the musicians are at close quarters.
I would like to attract your attention to the fact, that the differences showed up after contrasting the two power supplies Also with the commercial power supply only, Playmate is a worthy of note favorite of mine. To summarize, the presence of the linear power supply serve a better music quality
Summary
With the Burson V6 Vivid and Classic opa-s and a linear power supply, we can manage to get hold of a DAC , a source of a delightful sound as a Burson Playmate!
Thank you for your attention!
Attachments
My v6 vivid experience
Hello there, i hope you are all well these strange days
Firstly i would like to thank Carlos (SSaudio) for the samples at the cost of an honest opinion
To begin with, opamps have passed some measurements before listening. They compared with LME49990 and muses8920. All three have the same BW with a difference of +/- 0.2db. Burson v6 suffers of a 15mV dc offsets in adittion to 1.8 and 2.6mV for LME and muses. This higher but neglible offset is inaudible
Before i proceed to the listening tests i need to share that i am not fan of blind tests. This is because i believe that there is no point if i need to close my eyes to hear some differences. If there are some, i like to hear them with my all senses presented. Nevertheless i have had a blind test just to be sure i can recognize the sound character of each opamp
Several listening tests were made including two D/A converters in two completely different systems in different rooms. I can ensure you that even the sound signature of a whole system changes when changing places
The first listening was with burson. Primarily i got a dry and harsh taste with overtoned highs. High-hats were too precised, extended and transparent. Vocals a bit smooth but well placed. Bass was lower but not soft. So i left it playing for a well burn-in. Several hours later there was no harshness dryness at all. Vocals are now present and a bit emphasized like the singer sings just a step away. Bass was emphasized as well, again a bit lower though. The overall sound became neutral enough without coloration. The sound stage is clearly deeper but not as wide as i would except. The most observed is the mid-high separation between instruments the clarity and the detail over there
Same test took part a week later to a completely different place and system
I experienced the absolute pairing. Extended transparent and detailed highs. Vocals and stringed instruments were colored in a pleasant way and finally the mid low and low frequencies came at the level i like giving the sense of the wider soundstage that was missing.
Some one can swap some pros with cons depending on his system
To conclude with, it is all about taste
Below you can find some mic comparison
It can't describe the overall result but there are differences if someone wants to see
Red:muses8929
Green:burson v6 vivid
Blue:lme49990
Pros:
Neutral enough
detailed
transparent
Clear and vivid
extended highs
Deep sound stage but not so wide
Cons:
A lower but not soft bass
Sometimes emphasized and aggressive vocals
Notice that the PSU has huge impact on any opamp behavior. Don't even try to compare with a single regulated power supply
2nd notice that even if BW gain measures the same the overall sense of gain is 1db lower for burson
Hello there, i hope you are all well these strange days
Firstly i would like to thank Carlos (SSaudio) for the samples at the cost of an honest opinion
To begin with, opamps have passed some measurements before listening. They compared with LME49990 and muses8920. All three have the same BW with a difference of +/- 0.2db. Burson v6 suffers of a 15mV dc offsets in adittion to 1.8 and 2.6mV for LME and muses. This higher but neglible offset is inaudible
Before i proceed to the listening tests i need to share that i am not fan of blind tests. This is because i believe that there is no point if i need to close my eyes to hear some differences. If there are some, i like to hear them with my all senses presented. Nevertheless i have had a blind test just to be sure i can recognize the sound character of each opamp
Several listening tests were made including two D/A converters in two completely different systems in different rooms. I can ensure you that even the sound signature of a whole system changes when changing places
The first listening was with burson. Primarily i got a dry and harsh taste with overtoned highs. High-hats were too precised, extended and transparent. Vocals a bit smooth but well placed. Bass was lower but not soft. So i left it playing for a well burn-in. Several hours later there was no harshness dryness at all. Vocals are now present and a bit emphasized like the singer sings just a step away. Bass was emphasized as well, again a bit lower though. The overall sound became neutral enough without coloration. The sound stage is clearly deeper but not as wide as i would except. The most observed is the mid-high separation between instruments the clarity and the detail over there
Same test took part a week later to a completely different place and system
I experienced the absolute pairing. Extended transparent and detailed highs. Vocals and stringed instruments were colored in a pleasant way and finally the mid low and low frequencies came at the level i like giving the sense of the wider soundstage that was missing.
Some one can swap some pros with cons depending on his system
To conclude with, it is all about taste
Below you can find some mic comparison
It can't describe the overall result but there are differences if someone wants to see
Red:muses8929
Green:burson v6 vivid
Blue:lme49990
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Pros:
Neutral enough
detailed
transparent
Clear and vivid
extended highs
Deep sound stage but not so wide
Cons:
A lower but not soft bass
Sometimes emphasized and aggressive vocals
Notice that the PSU has huge impact on any opamp behavior. Don't even try to compare with a single regulated power supply
2nd notice that even if BW gain measures the same the overall sense of gain is 1db lower for burson
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Can someone import them to my previous post?
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A blind test is one in which you don't know a-priori what device is being used for each segment, you make your judgement before you find out what you are listening too, its nothing to do with closing your eyes. Double blind tests are when someone else is present - they too are ignorant of which is which so they cannot communicate this information to you in subconcious or subtle ways.
Only once you've made your judgement do you find out what was what, preventing any expectation bias from affecting your judgement.
You do know that there is an excellent feather that allows images to become posted on the forum right?
That makes it so that in three months when some third party website of unknown origin fails to operate, that others who are reading can see what you are writing about.
I did my “testing” by listening for several months to different parts, made it very apparent to me which I preferred. And no, I didn’t do any science experiments either.
That makes it so that in three months when some third party website of unknown origin fails to operate, that others who are reading can see what you are writing about.
I did my “testing” by listening for several months to different parts, made it very apparent to me which I preferred. And no, I didn’t do any science experiments either.
If the sibilance persisted he probably could quite easily.
I should note I have great deal of experience with Single blind testing which is effective in an ABX format and double blind ABX . Blind testing has problems and the biggest problem with audio is most components cannot be made exactly alike and for sure nobody has the same system. So lets have fun. Caveat Emptor!
Some advice
Why don't you try the op amps for yourself? Did you double blind test all your gear before you bought your components? I should think you did not. Changing an opamp is a significant thing right in the heart of the product. I would almost expect a difference from my experience.
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Hi Mark,
I fully agree with you about AB test and prebiased judgement
Let me explain myself what i mean saying ''not fan''
I have made several double blind AB tests, i can't count them
In lot of them there were tiny differences that the only way to listen to them was by blind test. IMO differences that need to close my eyes to recognize them, they are NOT exist.
I never said that the other two opamps were better or worse. I have also said that it is a matter of taste. One system matched better with LME the other with burson. That's all
About photos i don't know some other way to upload them. If someone can help with, it would be appreciated
This is nothing to do with opinion, a blind test reveals (statistically) truth about hearing. If you can statistically detect a difference with your eyes shut but not when they are open, your hearing can detect that difference. Its nothing about whether a difference exists, its about whether hearing can detect it.
Anyway the point is can the difference between the opamps be detected in a (double) blind test? If not then there is no discernable difference, and there is no "matched better".
Translate this whole discussion to colour perception and you'll see how daft it is - two green paints that cannot be discerned as different in hue to human eyesight, yet someone claims green number 1 matches something better than green number 2? That's what I call complete nonsense.
Anyway the point is can the difference between the opamps be detected in a (double) blind test? If not then there is no discernable difference, and there is no "matched better".
Translate this whole discussion to colour perception and you'll see how daft it is - two green paints that cannot be discerned as different in hue to human eyesight, yet someone claims green number 1 matches something better than green number 2? That's what I call complete nonsense.