It might be interesting to hear more of your experience....I have heard the comment previously that SW is preferable to soldering.
However, I have not seen all conditions disclosed, ie connector type/platings, wire type/platings, solder types etc.
I have made the comment previously that I find LF solders to be preferable to lead based solders.
In my servicing career I have auditioned numerous alloys and mfrs of solders used when renovating amplifiers/preamps/cdp's/cables etc and my conclusion is that they all sound different.
As stated I nowadays use 99.3Sn/0.7Cu and find it to be very acceptable....perhaps slightly overdamped/very slightly dull but it never causes musically wrong emphasis.
OTOH in my experience lead content causes a 'wrong' damping and lead/silver alloys cause 'drive me out of the room' emphasis.... IOW I find that the Sn/Cu is a pleasant compromise and I find that 'solderability' of Sn/Cu is fine provided that one is practiced in using it.
Sn/Au is another sound again and is brighter but still quite acceptable.....just keep the lead right out of the equation is my finding.
Dan.
However, I have not seen all conditions disclosed, ie connector type/platings, wire type/platings, solder types etc.
I have made the comment previously that I find LF solders to be preferable to lead based solders.
In my servicing career I have auditioned numerous alloys and mfrs of solders used when renovating amplifiers/preamps/cdp's/cables etc and my conclusion is that they all sound different.
As stated I nowadays use 99.3Sn/0.7Cu and find it to be very acceptable....perhaps slightly overdamped/very slightly dull but it never causes musically wrong emphasis.
OTOH in my experience lead content causes a 'wrong' damping and lead/silver alloys cause 'drive me out of the room' emphasis.... IOW I find that the Sn/Cu is a pleasant compromise and I find that 'solderability' of Sn/Cu is fine provided that one is practiced in using it.
Sn/Au is another sound again and is brighter but still quite acceptable.....just keep the lead right out of the equation is my finding.
Dan.
Well I ordered some wbt 0805 LF (I need brighter whether it’s in my head or not!)looks like I should practice some with it though!
the boards on the Hint seem high quality so the extra heat shouldn’t be too much problem?
In the case of Dans credibility I did hear a difference after I used wbt 0800 (lead based) on my xo’s .......flattened things quite a bit.
After unsoldered and put back together with wire nuts it was back to normal.
Now y’all are gonna say ‘well it was just a bad solder joint ‘ well I don’t think so as the connection was already twisted tight before soldering.
I’m not going to leave anything to chance because I have noticed I seem to hear differences that many here do not.
the boards on the Hint seem high quality so the extra heat shouldn’t be too much problem?
In the case of Dans credibility I did hear a difference after I used wbt 0800 (lead based) on my xo’s .......flattened things quite a bit.
After unsoldered and put back together with wire nuts it was back to normal.
Now y’all are gonna say ‘well it was just a bad solder joint ‘ well I don’t think so as the connection was already twisted tight before soldering.
I’m not going to leave anything to chance because I have noticed I seem to hear differences that many here do not.
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Cool and correct sounding brightness will come as soon as you get your new Varitemp soldering iron. 😉.
You are dealing with pre-tinned connections mostly so you shouldn't encounter problems.....if you can find a modern LF scrap pcb (junked TV, DVD player etc) you can practice on those boards but you shouldn't have any problems.
LF solder typically requires higher temp than Lead solder so the rosin flux evaporates away faster.....this limits solder time and makes it imperative to pre-tin wires and connections.
Also use solvent/cloth to polish oxides from surface of solder wire immediately before use....(NASA standard soldering first lesson).
They should be lead free in the first case.....just don't keep the iron on pcb pads long enough to cause delamination of the foil - practice on scrap LF boards will give you idea of the limits.
JC - Can you provide schematic of AC input/switching stage of the Hint, also do you know what solder alloy they use ?.
Dan.
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Thanks, and yes this is the Lead difference that I am 'talkin' bout'.
Correct.
You have tried the experiment and heard the differences, many here have not done so but still they have contrary opinion.......I venture this is opinion based on hearsay and not personal experience.
Those working with and listening to lead solders exclusively are coming from a different reference frame, trust your own ears (and the missus and friends/visitors), your wire twist nut experience has already told you that solder makes difference.
Your task now is to understand the sounds of different solders....the WBT 805 will be a new and learning experience for you. 😉.
Edit: On reflection all Bose speakers that I have worked on had wire wrap connections and NO solder except for driver terminal to flex wire joints......perhaps Mr Bose knew something that he wasn't saying !.
Dan.
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Dan, I think you might be able to guess the solder used based on recorded music sample. Remarkable! I also believe in repeatability and data correctness of the goop recordings.
Most of the time when I burn something it is because the soldering tip looked like it was touching the joint but it actually wasn't. You have to be careful sometimes that perspective doesn't make you misplace the tip.
Normal joints should generally melt within 2 seconds. Things connected to big pins, thick copper or ground planes take longer.
If you stick the tip right on the solder joint and it takes too long to melt, it is often because you have crud on your tip that is preventing contact. That is when, instead of pressing harder or waiting so long something starts to burn, you take a damp rag or paper towel or sponge and wipe off the tip. Then re-tin it immediately so the bare tip doesn't oxidize which will cause the same problem.
It is important to do this often if you don't want dirty joints with flecks of black scale. Over time your tip will accumulate burnt rosin/flux and ideally, you would clean it after every joint. A lot of the difference between brands of solder is the quality of flux used and some produce less char than others.
I prefer 0.8mm solder wire. Larger and you can't control how much you put into small joints, smaller and you end up overheating large joints because it takes too long to feed it the right amount of solder.
For large joints you want to use the side of the soldering iron tip or the flat if it's a chisel tip. The point cools down too easily so you will fail to melt the joint and you may even have the tip stuck in the joint when the solder pulls it's heat out.
Normal joints should generally melt within 2 seconds. Things connected to big pins, thick copper or ground planes take longer.
If you stick the tip right on the solder joint and it takes too long to melt, it is often because you have crud on your tip that is preventing contact. That is when, instead of pressing harder or waiting so long something starts to burn, you take a damp rag or paper towel or sponge and wipe off the tip. Then re-tin it immediately so the bare tip doesn't oxidize which will cause the same problem.
It is important to do this often if you don't want dirty joints with flecks of black scale. Over time your tip will accumulate burnt rosin/flux and ideally, you would clean it after every joint. A lot of the difference between brands of solder is the quality of flux used and some produce less char than others.
I prefer 0.8mm solder wire. Larger and you can't control how much you put into small joints, smaller and you end up overheating large joints because it takes too long to feed it the right amount of solder.
For large joints you want to use the side of the soldering iron tip or the flat if it's a chisel tip. The point cools down too easily so you will fail to melt the joint and you may even have the tip stuck in the joint when the solder pulls it's heat out.
Dan did not find a need to clarify the part of my statement you highlighted. You may assume anything you like.
Pavel, I have presented Goop loopback recordings and Bob was the only one who ventured to describe differences as he heard them.....nobody else had the balls to do so.
I am happy to do this loopback recording processing on any track you nominate, in fact I believe I have offered this to you previously.
I could do this to the Dean Martin snippet or the most recent snippet you provided......give me a day or two and I will endeavor to do so, like I said I am just under four weeks into healing a fractured/compressed vertebra so my physical and mental energy levels are not 100% right now.
So yes, part of my question of asking you to provide pics of your 'blind test' preamps was to ask about solders used and inclusion of the likes of ferrite filtering/conditioning in the power supply/input stages etc.....in addition to questions about case materials, pcb materials, wiring methods etc.....pics would help in this process of affirmation/elimination of sounds according to schematic and devices and materials and layouts.
So, I'm saying that comparison of 'preamps' with different construction details is actually comparing apples to oranges.
IOW, to correctly compare schematics all else MUST remain constant, ie cabinet, pcb, psu, wiring etc......this boils down to a cabinet with connectors where different DUT schematic sub pcb's can be interchanged.
One example of this is opamp rolling....the only subjective changes are because of change in one device, ie nothing else.
There are plenty of accounts of positive subjective changes according to changing to the likes of Burson opamp modules and other discrete opamp modules and also 8 pin opamps where nothing else is changed.....of course the 'idealness' of PS and grounding is not usually disclosed BUT the common finding is that swap out of 8pin opamp device/module can cause audible changes.
So, the bottom line is that your recent test is actually comparing machines (that incorporate differing devices and schematics and psu's) and not just naked schematics.....AFAIK.
Dan.
Yes, as said, cleaning the tip of the soldering iron regularly is important.
I must add, a wet small sponge is the best way to do it ( AFAIK for leaded solder ).
The Weller soldering station I am using from the XX century, my favorite, has a place for the small sponge, and all serious soldering I used to see had it, too.
Some guys were using a wire brush, I did not like but for really bad dirty tips.
I must add, a wet small sponge is the best way to do it ( AFAIK for leaded solder ).
The Weller soldering station I am using from the XX century, my favorite, has a place for the small sponge, and all serious soldering I used to see had it, too.
Some guys were using a wire brush, I did not like but for really bad dirty tips.
In between the lines of KT's info, yes iron temp setting is critical between non melting/flowing/tinning of the solder and evaporation/charring of the flux and immediate consequential solder oxidation....this is the skill.
Tip must be cleansed/reconditioned between joints if left idle, high tip temp causes oxidation layer on the tip that must be removed.
Wetted sponge/Stainless Steel wool/solid block rosin (as per the Ebay link I gave) is very useful for restoring the tip between joints, my other advice is to drop the temp when not using it and return to soldering temp just before usage.
As per KT advice 0.8mm/1.0mm even 1.2mm is optimal for GP usage, and you have two/three second time window to complete the joint before the flux evaporates/chars and the solder oxidises.....this is why pre-tinning of wires/connectors is required.
Bob you have the nouse to work it out, work with me and you will get the Parasound result you want. 😉.
Dan.
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Gerhard, whilst you think you are being funny you ought to consider that you are lead contaminated in biology and in listening, and that listening to lead whilst lead contaminated increases the biological effect of the lead in your physiology.....this statement will become more clear to you in time.
Please understand that I understand and applaud that you do some very good work, my response to you is in no way disrespectful.
Dan.
Hey.....I saw that b4 edit! 😛
I was noticing these differences before I came across Dan or anyone else for that matter.
Been looking for answers for over a yr now......a lot has come into focus during my quest.
I welcome the negative viewpoints just as well as the positive......you know yin/yang n’all 😉
I got the .9 mm .....So if your melting point is 426 F. Where would you set the iron temp?
I was noticing these differences before I came across Dan or anyone else for that matter.
Been looking for answers for over a yr now......a lot has come into focus during my quest.
I welcome the negative viewpoints just as well as the positive......you know yin/yang n’all 😉
I got the .9 mm .....So if your melting point is 426 F. Where would you set the iron temp?
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Uh huh, I can provide download link and you can compare the set of recordings that Bob appraised......do you have the same balls as Bob ?.
Dan.
The TS100 does that for you. It reduces the temperature to 200C after sitting a few minutes and then warms up in a few seconds when you pick it up, it has a motion sensor. This really helps keep the tip from building up a crust of charred flux.
Yes, too hot and the rapidly vaporizing flux will spit tiny hot bubbles at you, and leave a tough white frosted residue around the area like a smoke stain. The rosin should smoke off slowly, not blast off in a cloud, so there will be enough left by the time the joint is finished.
For my Aoyue iron I use 354C, for my TS100 I use 350C. A few degrees makes a perceptible difference for both irons. Every iron temp sensor is different and every tip has a different heat distribution so when you first get an iron or a new kind of solder you dial in the last several degrees to give you enough heat to work reasonably fast but cool enough to give you time for each joint.
I wouldn't scare anyone by calling it a skill though. It's mostly just being observant about what is happening and why. Where most people go wrong is when it doesn't work, and they don't see why because they aren't thinking about what the solder is doing and what that means, or weren't looking for those things. Fully melted lead solder is bouncy, not viscous, and mirror like, and doesn't leave standing tails when you pull the tip away (can't say about lead-free stuff). If there is no smoke then either there is no flux left, or no heat.
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