Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high SPL, low distortion with a 2-way?

[GM]

Hand crafted like Great Plains Audio.

 

[Ro808]

Wow, well worth the wait, it seems.

 

[Ro808]

This is not related to the topic of the thread, but could I ask which forum this is? Sounds like an interesting forum, and it would also be a way for me to brush up on my French. Merci

You mean the forum in which the image was originally posted?

This one:
Recording

Sorry to disappoint you, but that forum's language is English.

 

[tnargs]

Someone has to do it

This is a fundamental misunderstanding from those who have not heard extraordinary systems. The "I want bad recordings to sound bad" trope is common and quite understandable - if you haven't heard what can be done. I know that comes across as condescending, but it is not meant to be. Extraordinary systems are rare, but definition. I've heard them, but only come close to owning one after many years of effort.

First: Once frequency and power response get better you will find that the things that bothered you about the "bad" recordings don't' bother you as much any more. Sure, the recording is still flawed, and you'll hear that. But when the speaker and room are contributing nasties to the sound, funky recordings won't hurt your ears as much. You'll hear the music, not the faults. Most of us here have heard that.

Second: Pushing beyond response, when other things like diffraction, resonances and so on are under control an amazing world starts to open up. At this point not only will the annoyances of frequency response fall way but noise will sit in a different space. It's tangible. This is an uncanny thing when you hear it. LP surface noise, tape hiss, buzzes and other artifacts will occupy a different place in the 3D space. They do because they are in a different space. Since almost all systems mash all the sounds together into a big past, you don't imagine that noise could sit apart from the music. But once you hear it, you quickly understand how they can. When the noise and other defects are detached from the music, they become less intrusive and easier to ignore. You hear them, but they don't get in the way of the music. Sure, the recorded music may have limited dynamic and frequency range but it still comes thru as a thing apart from the defects - a living thing to enjoy. You'll hear the faults, but they don't get in the way.

Many of us have heard the first effect, very few of us have heard the second because it's extremely rare. They nice thing is, it isn't a brick wall. You can get there bit by bit. It isn't that an extraordinary system will make a bad recording good - it's that you are able to easily hear the music past the fault because the music and the faults and the music are no longer mixed together. The faults being separate become easy to ignore. It's a wonderful thing. Rare, but wonderful.

This is very interesting to me as you seem to be explaining something I’ve been trying to define for some time now.

My system is far from extraordinary BUT with over a year of tweaking drivers, xo components,dsp settings,and assorted other things related to the actual sound at LP there was a something that started to reveal itself that I described a couple times as being ‘in a snow globe’ with the music, almost as if the music,the room, and yourself are a single entity.

The sound takes over physically and emotionally to a point where everything else disappears and a state of slight euphoria ensues, researching this led me to ASMR (also described as ‘brain orgasm’ ‘brain tingle’ etc) .......you can ‘feel’ the midrange/highs much as you would bass but in a tingly sensation between your ear and brain. When this is dialed I can listen quite loud (100db avg @ lp) with no ill effects.

I find subtle changes in anything that has to do with phase matching can bring this in and out of focus, it’s very elusive and in my case most variable with dsp in a active/passive hybrid xo in a 2 way + subs system.

I think some over on the ‘lounge’ have found my exploits on the edge of insanity but like you said unless you experience this it’s quite hard to fathom.

If you could elaborate more on this it’d be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Bob

I like what you have said here. Your description sounds like “the greatest” ability, as I said I am trying to reach, except for the areas of “sounding bad” where “bad” becomes subject and not so much blatant, yet the material parts are not hidden, instead clearly revealed, but not in a manner that would immediately invoke a sonic dissonance. This is tight rope someone spoke of I think. That’s true to a grand scale. I do have a focus towards a certain aspect of “bad”. Dynamic Contrast. In threads shortly precious we went into detail about what I meant about the term. If I can achieve this, I will be happy and the other benefits I achieve with proper design will icing on the cake.

Camplo,

I’ve enjoyed your thread immensely and am a 2 way fan myself.

If what pano referenced is the same as what I’m experiencing I’m not sure how that would correlate to a studio monitor situation......I think it’s more a fine tuning of playback vs environment (lp/room).
I can say this though when I have this effect dialed the level of realism is crazy!

Edit......it also seems ‘across the board’ as in the inferior recordings take on a listenable quality making one think ‘ahhh that’s what they were going for’ instead of ‘what were they thinking’ !

Pano's post touches the essence of what we're dealing with in this thread.

While reading it, the title of a track entered my mind: "On a higher level".

It is not a magic concept; it is the sum of all technological measures and layers combined to create 'magical' results.

I tend to describe this concept with "conservation of the source".
It does not necessarily require directivity, although this can be a contributing factor.

I agree with Pano's premise. And have listen to a couple of systems that lived up to the level of performance he describes. To me, it comes down, more or less to one word, and that is resolution. When the system easily produces tape hiss as exactly that, and oddly it seems to be in the foreground, not in the back ground. Like you are listening from the bottom up. Find a copy of Blossom Dearie recording on Verve of "Surrey with the fringe on top" from the late 50's. Simple un molested recording with a bunch of tape hiss. Find the best system you can and listen to it. If the system is really good, you are transported to the recording session, warts and all. Bottom line, is the best of systems leave the impression you are hearing all there is to hear, be it good, bad or ugly.

Yes. And those systems help you hear past (or thru, around) the noise and other faults to focus on the music. The bad is still there, it's just mentally easy to ignore. Strange effect.

I'd say the magic is in the recording(s). It's our job to get it out of there in reproduction. I wouldn't say it's a window to the recording, at least it's not what I shoot for. It's more like 'being a part of it', almost like time traveling, scary even... at least that has been my experience so far. Pure subjective feelings that take over from the often analytical listening mode I'm trying to be in. At least that's how I've experienced it with my system and reason for me to work on it for years on end.
(while trying to find the exact ingredients along the way, if you ask me, balance is a big part of it... not only left/right balance but also frequency balance overall, what fits the room/system. I can't see those separately, the room + speakers make up the system as a whole)

I wouldn't dare state I have it all, but I do recognise the wording Pano uses. I've been swept off my feet many times during my journey.
That makes it worth it to me pursuing this next level and try to make the illusion, because that's what it is, even stronger.

Well, I will be the little girl who stands next to this parade of royalty and declares that the emperor has no clothes.

I would not like your chances of replicating these experiences of The Mystery, under controlled listening conditions.

And if you can't, then your experiences are not generated by sound waves, and the emperor will be seen by all to be naked.

cheers

 

[Ro808]

Still infected with the Coax virus, I accidentally landed in the "Beyond the Ariel" thread.
In this specific part (p. 848 > ca. p. 875) many relevant and interesting topics are discussed, including notable contributions by Lynn Olson, Tom Danley, JMMLC and once again: Pano.

 

[scottjoplin]

Well, I will be the little girl who stands next to this parade of royalty and declares that the emperor has no clothes.

I would not like your chances of replicating these experiences of The Mystery, under controlled listening conditions.

And if you can't, then your experiences are not generated by sound waves, and the emperor will be seen by all to be naked.

cheers

Toole, Olive, Linkwitz, Geddes etc have done work to correlate measurements/reality to perception

 

[AllenB]

@tnargs,

What Pano says is true, and is simple. His reasons have been stated. Geddes has been saying it for years, and I'll gladly second it.

 

[barossi]

Hi,

i really like this horn: Klipsch K-402 horn (probably a 2" Faital driver?)

System od Steve Bedard:

Is there a manufacture for the K402 horns?

KR Barossi

 

[picowallspeaker]

Toole, Olive, Linkwitz, Geddes etc have done work to correlate measurements/reality to perception

You must be jocking!
An entire generation held hostage by these guys...

 

[mountainman bob]

Camplo,
The specs on those look quite impressive for what your after.......you going to cross around 800? Where’s the phase plugs?

Tnargs.....don’t be a hater!
It is repeatable because in the beginning I lost it a couple times and managed to get it back.
Lost it due to driver changes,xo changes, then finally figured out it was phase/polar/timing related and now I can dial in and out with ease using dsp.

Still really don’t know exactly what the true workings are but definately know it is real and repeatable.

 

[tnargs]

Toole, Olive, Linkwitz, Geddes etc have done work to correlate measurements/reality to perception

Yes, well aware of Toole and Olive, and what they demonstrated... under controlled conditions. Also well aware of what they demonstrated when comparing controlled versus typical conditions, which led them to also say something equivalent to "the emperor is in a state of undress". Hence my challenge. cheers

 

[camplo]

"My speakers have always had less than 5 to 10 degrees of phase divergence between drivers in the crossover region, which gives an impression of a single driver, even when you're right next to the loudspeaker. The acoustical crossover is also free of peaks and nulls, so there are no sudden phase deviations in the crossover region to steer the polar pattern up and down. " - Lynn Olson

The 18 will be used for a sub, phase plugs were out of stock at the moment, they will come in a separate shipment.


I've been studying transmission lines, which I way be able to use for the 18 if the output allows. I need to find a nice transmission line modeler. All I understand is the length and dampening. An expanding transmission line....looks like a horn to me. I'm trying to specifically figure out the effects how the dimensions of the the line (outside of length) affect the sound. The length is tied to tuning frequency but everything else seems to be modifiable, but I can't find material on what the results will be, other than, a line that tapers increases extension or something to that effect.

 

[mountainman bob]

Sorry I’ve only been skimming your thread, I didn’t realize you incorporated subs.
I’d be tempted to try them in a two way configuration just to see what’s possible.

Those paired with that new coax horn !? Technically I suppose that’d be a 3 way but who’d know!

Edit.....Bill Fitzmarice is supposed to be a Folded horn sub guru ?

https://billfitzmaurice.info/index.html

 

[camplo]

Lol yeah we've been down that old dirty road, Is it 2 way Mains with a Sub, or a 3 way with a deep crossover from the midbass. In the end it depends on which side of the road you came from. The AXi2050 is not coaxial btw, its a broad range compression driver.

 

[mountainman bob]

The FR Curve on that celestion mirrors what I have at lp on my system......some say it looks like my tweeters are unplugged when I post the FR, but at high spl it shines.

 

[scottjoplin]

"My speakers have always had less than 5 to 10 degrees of phase divergence between drivers in the crossover region, which gives an impression of a single driver, even when you're right next to the loudspeaker. The acoustical crossover is also free of peaks and nulls, so there are no sudden phase deviations in the crossover region to steer the polar pattern up and down. " - Lynn Olson

Could be why I like wideband drivers and simple old recordings, or that rare beast the well engineered complex mix/recording by someone who knows the pitfalls.

 

[camplo]

Yes, the highs on these haven't been perceived as a 10/10 but I'm more concerned with having an unadulterated midrange. If I can't make it to 200hz, I'll at least get them down to 300hz.
I have I may have to invest in a Lab Gruppen IPD to drive them depending on the noise floor of the crowns.

 

[Pano]

And if you can't, then your experiences are not generated by sound waves, and the emperor will be seen by all to be naked.

Why sugarcoat it? Since you haven't directly experienced this effect - that makes us either liars or delusional. Is that it?

 

[mountainman bob]

Yes, the highs on these haven't been perceived as a 10/10 but I'm more concerned with having an unadulterated midrange. If I can't make it to 200hz, I'll at least get them down to 300hz.
I have I may have to invest in a Lab Gruppen IPD to drive them depending on the noise floor of the crowns.

If your gonna run them that low i’m A bit confused as to why you need a sub configuration instead of just pairing with the 18’s in a 2-way?

Sorry, I’m sure it’s been gone over somewhere here but that’s the nature of these long threads!

Edit.....never seen the lab gruppen b4, looks nice!

And I also think a sloped top end lets the mids hold center stage better......there’s not much in music above 10k anyway.

 

[mountainman bob]

Here’s my fr @ lp (about 9’) avg’d entire track (one of my test tracks)