It's a good starting point.
Then, just lube up the potential customer with gentle hints of perhaps a slight discount if they act nice and spend big, but sort of indirectly indicate that it hurts you.
To be sure, it was not a personal attack. I am just saying, I don't think there is even any last tiny % of difference outside of any measured differences in capacitance and resistance on the cables being compared. If whatever treatment, braiding, blessing or other magic can change the measured electrical properties, then I can understand that possibly making differences in sound.
Are those differences actually perceptible and are they changes for the better? That is another whole can of worms... Do yourself a favor and remove all of the subjective "It has to be better" arguments and replace them with "It has to be worse" and those arguments still make sense, because none of them are based in science, measured response, or any other verifiable reality.
What I find the most entertaining about these arguments is not that those ignorant of physics and science argue the benefits, but those that know better try to misapply the science and physics that they understand to make their point.
When all else fails, the last resort is "Well I can hear a difference, even if you can't... " and "I don't care if I was unable to reliably choose the boutique cable in the A/B/X test, your setup was flawed".
You hit the nail squarely on the head there. In another thread recently Dave (Planet 10) tried to undermine my hearing acuity by quoting a number of posts I'd made about my tinnitus.
The thickness of the wire has a huge impact on bass authority. This is audible and quite easily measured. I compared 16ga stranded lamp cord (usual stuff we like to use - really inexpensive and quite good) to 12ga solid copper house mains wiring (Romex). The solid stuff was a pain to use as it is stiff like a beam and bends only when physically bent by hand. But cost was reasonable for a test.
With a solid state Class AB and Class A amp, I could measure a large difference in the amp impedance at the speaker wire where it attaches to the speaker. I wrote this up a while ago somewhere but forget where. It was significantly better with the Romex.
Based on that I bought some decent flexible stranded premade 12ga speaker cables with banana plug tips. They were like $30/pair. A fair price and the music sounds better.
With a solid state Class AB and Class A amp, I could measure a large difference in the amp impedance at the speaker wire where it attaches to the speaker. I wrote this up a while ago somewhere but forget where. It was significantly better with the Romex.
Based on that I bought some decent flexible stranded premade 12ga speaker cables with banana plug tips. They were like $30/pair. A fair price and the music sounds better.
In general, stranded wire has less resistance than copper wire due to the skin effect of multiple conductors. There will also be slight capacitance differences between solid and stranded conductors. In general the higher the AC frequency, the closer to the surface of the wire it rides.
So back to the main point - there is no argument that measurable differences in electrical properties in cables can lead to differences in what is heard from the speakers. Good or bad...
So back to the main point - there is no argument that measurable differences in electrical properties in cables can lead to differences in what is heard from the speakers. Good or bad...
This "skin effect" that you mentioned is indeed a real thing. However, at audio frequencies it is irrelevant, since it's only an issue at RF and microwave frequencies.
As for the stranded/solid comparison, stranded vs solid at the same gauge - stranded has less copper because there is air between the strands.
As for the stranded/solid comparison, stranded vs solid at the same gauge - stranded has less copper because there is air between the strands.
In Nelson’s article on speaker wire i linked to above i believe he indicated he started seeing skin effect at 1kHz.
dave
I would agree with the negligible differences at audio frequencies for the most part. The point was that there are electrical characteristics that can be measured.
That is not actually the case and depends on the wire classification, number of strands and manufacturer.
In most cases, the spec allows a tolerance on both sides if the ideal circular mils specification. Looking at a single wire class (THHN) for example, you will see at some gauges the solid has slight more conductor cross section and at other the stranded has more cross section
A single reference where you can explore this... most wire manufacturers can provide product specific data.
https://pdhonline.com/courses/e275/E275_AWG-Tables.pdf
Hi Dave,
Skin effect at 1 KHz? Can you find that information? I can't see this unless the wire was very long and perhaps coiled (then we're looking at inductance).
What's neat is that at higher frequencies they often use tubing for wire. No sense paying for copper that isn't in circuit.
-Chris
Skin effect at 1 KHz? Can you find that information? I can't see this unless the wire was very long and perhaps coiled (then we're looking at inductance).
What's neat is that at higher frequencies they often use tubing for wire. No sense paying for copper that isn't in circuit.
-Chris
from the paper i linked above, well worth reading.
Questions about speaker wire's? What forum do I post it on?
And to that a later paper that talks about some of the stuff in the parenthesis of paragraph 3 of the above.
http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_cs_amps.pdf
This is an example of kind of possiblilities i have been talking about.
dave
And of course ultimately no wires at all but wave guides, I was fascinated by them when I worked in the Post Office tower in Birmingham.
Yeah, it's easy to find, you trip over it in Home Depot, but you don't need that solid-core Romex to get 12 gauge!
Low Voltage Landscape Lighting wire - Google Search
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Agree WRT 12g Romex but stranded Aluminum wire/PVC insulation (jacket), no thanks.
I can't afford pure silver wire so I'll stick with CAT5e Plenum solid copper Teflon coated wire, it's cheap enough and available at my local big-box home-center.
I've yet to try one single strand, been using four of the eight strands per single - or + binding post for speaker cable but plan to get another run of wire and remove the four twisted strand pairs from the jacket and try one twisted strand pair per binding post.
Again to qualify the application, no arc-welder amps just flea power tubes and simple speaker loads here ... perhaps one of these days the speaker load/power needs will change and I find a use for the 8TC Kimber Kable, when who knows.
ROTFLMAO!
Consider that many budding audiophiles, I included, had transitioned from lamp cord to "Original Monster Cable" only to see the pretty bright copper color strands turn brown and green within their clear insulation-jacket and it's not difficult to see how they'd fall for that marketing BS. LOL, and correct me if I'm wrong but isn't one of the virtues of pure silver wire that its oxidation layer is as conductive as the solid silver core ... or have I fallen for more BS?
The discoloration of the wire within the monster cables is due to the leaching/outgassing of the insulation in contact with the wire. Basically corrosion.
As for silver tarnishing/oxidation, no.... that tarnish is like an insulator.
Ask anyone who owns a turntable with tarnished silver cartridge/headshell contacts and silver plated muting switch contacts - the tarnishing causes all kinds of problems.
I, for one, do not fall for all the hype of "super" audio products.
As for silver tarnishing/oxidation, no.... that tarnish is like an insulator.
Ask anyone who owns a turntable with tarnished silver cartridge/headshell contacts and silver plated muting switch contacts - the tarnishing causes all kinds of problems.
I, for one, do not fall for all the hype of "super" audio products.
Not surprised, LOL.
FWIW, there is no such oxidation visible on the clear coated wire of the individual clear and white braided strands Kimber Kable 8TC I have which is at least 15 years old, purchased when Kimber made the change from black braided with blue to white braided with clear. The visible copper is still a bright clean copper color. My Orginal Monster Cable discolored - oxidized long before 15 years of ownership, cheap oversized lamp cord, I guess?
From their website:
HIGH CURRENT BRAIDED LOUDSPEAKER CABLE
16 strands of 19.5 AWG OFE (oxygen free electrolytic) copper with industry leading conductivity. (102% IACS).
Aggregate combination of 8, 19.5AWG strands=9AWG per +/- leg.
Teflon insulation. White/Clear
LOW series induction design: 0.09 uH / meter
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silver oxide is conductive
what forms on silver contacts is silver sulfide (or something with sulfur lol)
it is yellowish and it is mostly sulfites/des which attack silver, not oxygen because silver is not reactive enough at room temperature to bond with O.
It will bond with So2, even the smallest amount in the air, from pollution will bond with silver and make the contact resistive.
BTW copper is worse.
Gold is platted too small and hard to solder over other metals.
So the best contact is rhodium, toxic but it is the best plating I ever had for my connectors, it is very expensive.
Make sure you place the + to the +, the - to the -.
what forms on silver contacts is silver sulfide (or something with sulfur lol)
it is yellowish and it is mostly sulfites/des which attack silver, not oxygen because silver is not reactive enough at room temperature to bond with O.
It will bond with So2, even the smallest amount in the air, from pollution will bond with silver and make the contact resistive.
BTW copper is worse.
Gold is platted too small and hard to solder over other metals.
So the best contact is rhodium, toxic but it is the best plating I ever had for my connectors, it is very expensive.
Make sure you place the + to the +, the - to the -.
Hi Dave. Sorry for the late reply. I have not use solid skinny speaker cables. I was still looking into this matter.
Jeff
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