I missed this post until Scott replied above (he has some uses 😀)
I was playing devils' advocate with that post which you quoted part of.
I'm not stating my opinion in that post but rather some points to ponder - for instance in the Mcgurk effect we are 'slaves' to our visual perception i.e we can't help ourselves hear 'ba' even when we know that the actual sound is 'fa'.
I took that as a starting point as it's often given as an example of the pitfalls of sighted listening.
The obvious question is, is our auditory perception always a slave to our visual perception as in McGurk or not? If not, what makes it so & why is Mcgurk such a strong bias?
If we believe that the visuals effect what we hear so substantially then how does doing a blind test which shows us the 'truth' of what we actually should hear - how does this change what we now hear sighted - how does it overcome the visual influence on what we hear when sighted? It doesn't in the case of McGurk - why?
So I hope the above explains where I stand on your question - by & large, I'm of the opinion that when we hear a more engaging, more natural & interesting version of music we are very familiar with, it is not a delusion & is because of some change in the acoustic waveform over time. If many people using different systems find the same improvement, & can state what it is they are hearing which concurs with what I'm hearing, then despite what limited measurements may say, it's a change in the waveform.
Can people fool themselves into believing that something sounds better - yes, for sure - we have all been there.
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I used to like you sj but I believe calling someone a ‘fudmonger’ would probably start a pub fight in Scotland!😀
/fudmonger
One who spreads fear, uncertainty and doubt (fud) through propoganda, misdirection and/or shady marketing to fulfill a hidden agenda.
Man......I ain’t no fudmonger! Killin me. 🙁
This is a better definition Fear, uncertainty, and doubt - Wikipedia
As you can see it's about influencing perception 😉 In this case the false perception that if you can't hear something there is something wrong with your perception 🙂
As you can see it's about influencing perception 😉 In this case the false perception that if you can't hear something there is something wrong with your perception 🙂
I suppose it’s those who’ve been fooled that become objectivists?
I’ve been disappointed before but always assume my own risk.
SJ, it’s a bobs world!😛
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I believe that those who have a very high level of personal ego invested in their system are the ones that easily fool themselves. This can be seen as a high level of bias. And if those same people lose the belief that they are right, it can be a painful jolt to the ego. I can well envisage a psychological need to find a belief system that will not expose them again to this ego shock. Turning to measurements & a closed mind to anything not supported by current measurements is a safe & stable area for these egos. So the same ego investment is made in this viewpoint & a great deal of effort expended in always appearing to be right.
Sorry for the amateur psychology
Yes, i've gone down wrong alleyways but I chalk it up to experience & accept that we all have done this & are all flawed.
Did it ever occur to you that education may play a role in not buying all the subjective prose crapola?
I've noticed over the years that, short of some otherwise qualified people with a vested interest, the vast majority of those promoting their audio subjective BS usually can't tell their a** from a hole in the ground when it comes to technology and EE in particular.
Well, I've heard it voluntarily posted by many objectivists that they were once avid subjectivists, the latest being from PMA. I'm sure that doesn't categorise all objectivists & I'm sure there are very well educated people .. on both sides 😉
Were you ever a subjectivist in this hobby, making wrong choices in pursuit of audio nirvana?
Were you ever a subjectivist in this hobby, making wrong choices in pursuit of audio nirvana?
I'd say it's more likely to be the opposite - imagine designing audio electronics all your life and tying that, as many people do, to their self identity. It would not be welcome or easily accepted to find out that your entire career was spent in pursuit of ghosts.
Funnily enough if someone has spent their entire working life designing audio electronics & have had these designs proved very popular in both the public & lauded by many people & achieved many awards for such designs, I don't follow how you think someone would think "entire career was spent in pursuit of ghosts"? Your logic escapes me - maybe you can explain?
No, I was not, which doesn't mean I did not try to correlate (some times, but not always, successfully) measurements with what I was hearing (or thought I was hearing, thereof).
About PMA, once upon a time, he was trying to get into the audio business (and eventually gave up, great idea). You got the drift, aren't you? 😀
Educated... in what? A doctorate in linguistics doesn't make you an objectivist when it comes to audio, but certainly makes you an objectivist when it comes to language structures.
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Being popular and lauded by the public in no way proves the superiority, efficacy, or whatever you want to call it, of a product. You do realize that Bose is the most popular and lauded audio company by the general public?
Just because I make a box and people buy it, does not mean that any of my claims are true.
This is the usual fallback of those in the industry and it's a logical fallacy.
Sure, some people who would count themselves as subjectivists don't have a clue about technology - similarly some who categorise themselves as objectivists don't have a clue about auditory perception - remember this is a hobby about listening to & enjoying music, not reading oscilloscopes or FFT plots - yet these same people pontificate about perceptual testing as if they knew something about it
Sure, and these "experts" on perceptual testing, who have spent all their time in the joke that is the "hi-end" audio industry, would be laughed out of the room if they presented their test "methods" in front of anyone from the pharmaceutical industry.
You seem to be projecting your own disappointment onto someone who has spent a successful working life in designing audio devices which have been highly regarded by many. We all have tried to work out as best we can our way of living in the world with whatever work/life balance works for us. Those who do what they enjoy & can make a living at it are the lucky few, despite begrudgery by others.
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