The FaitalPro 6FE200 (95dB) matches well with the Heil (96dB). Sounds good and measures well too. I measured using a simple 20uF cap (approx. x/o 2k) on the Heil and adding DSP. Put the midrange in a sealed box.
If you like 10" woofers, I would recommend the Eminence BP102
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Beyond my experience as a listener / marketing agent of the models that were imported here in the 70s, I do not have enough knowledge to design a 3 way crossover network.
This is not an easy task, because not only is important the adequate overlap of the crossing frequencies, but the coloration (timbre) of the materials of the different speakers, to achieve a homogeneous sound. It is a mixture of art, knowledge and experience.
A great sound is not just measurements. A large sound cabinet can measure very far from a "flat" response.
That said, I've always preferred to build cabinets of tried-and-true DIY designs or commercial cabinets that have well-earned "word-of-mouth" prestige. Neither the reviews of the specialized magazines are reliable.
Stereophile
How flat is flat?
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That is a two part problem:
The first problem is, the diaphragm was changed in material and thickness as well as dimensions of the diaphragm carrier as well as the uneven volume and distribution of the glue applied. The tolerances were high and, aside from that, the diaphragms changed over the years a lot! That's why you should only buy them in unmodified, original pairs or matched. This is a huge, IMMENSE PITA if you want to repair an old pair of them. I've had around two dozends of AMTs on my bench and I can tell you, if you want to replace a diaphragm of an ESS AMT, believe me and do yourself a real solid and replace BOTH! And no, I do not profit from any diaphragm sales and do not sell them either.
The second part is the enviroment. Because of the very large diaphragm, at short measuring distances the difference of the angle of the measurement already changes that much, interferences can occour and causes the measurements to divert vastly. Short distance measurements (1m and less) do not represent the actual response, depending on the measuring distance and exact height. You get better (actual) response measurements at ~2m and that also means, they are not suitable for close distance listening either.
But if you want middle range that has attack and realism,some good transducer well crossed (3 ways) should be added ...
The midrange was the real and biggest problem of the ESS speakers. The midrange was ok-ish at best. You'll improve the speakers the most by adding a midrange speaker. But since the bass isn't that great either, it's best to build a completely new speaker with the AMTs and other mid- and bass-drivers.
I've not only listened to ESS AMTs but also Mundorf, Dayton and many others. How good they perform strongly depends on how you use them. Some manufacturers don't produce very good AMTs though. In general: Don't cross them over too low (no, the manufacturers suggestion does not help you there, make your own measurements!) or not steep enough and you won't get a good result. If you use them correctly, you'll get an extremely detailed and relaxed sound with an immense dynamic range. If you find it 'boring', it's probably the distortion you're missing. A longer listening session often shows that.
The real problem is that the whole dispersed sound (under all angles) accounts to the perceived response, not just the 0° measurement. Much more often the 30° or the general response in the room is much more important than the 0° one. Practically all HiFi magazines ignore that and that's why these are merely a side information instead of a listener/buyers guide. You can verify that by listening to a lot of speakers highly regarded by magazines at not-ideal-angles or using them in your own room.
That's also why a lot of DIY speaker developments are aiming the wrong way because they only measure and optimize at 0° and then more or less fail at listening comparisons.
To add something else to the controversy:
The coupling between the room and the speaker is fundamental, is not it?
Well, when you hear a particular speaker in a demonstration room, and immediately you hear another one, they are two totally different couplings. As a result, the test is not the same as in the living room of our home, some speakers that seemed superior in the demonstration site, can sound disastrous in your home, and vice versa.
Therefore, it is best to choose two or three pairs (those that we liked the most) and request that they take it to our room, and there make the final choice.
Quite unlikely most of the time, but I agreed to it. And everyone happy .....
The coupling between the room and the speaker is fundamental, is not it?
Well, when you hear a particular speaker in a demonstration room, and immediately you hear another one, they are two totally different couplings. As a result, the test is not the same as in the living room of our home, some speakers that seemed superior in the demonstration site, can sound disastrous in your home, and vice versa.
Therefore, it is best to choose two or three pairs (those that we liked the most) and request that they take it to our room, and there make the final choice.
Quite unlikely most of the time, but I agreed to it. And everyone happy .....
Yes, that's what I said
It depends on the desire you have to develop the full speaker from the premise:
I want the best tweeter and they told me it's the AMT !
It will not be an easy task, but tastes are tastes.
I prefer a vintage JBL 075, or some Peerles or Seas dome, etc, and follow the path already experienced by connoisseurs from there. How many DIY developments recognized by the community are there from AMT Heil? I have not seen any!
Well, yes and no. It depends on your speakers and room aswell as your listening circumstances. A near field monitor and appropriate close listening distance will not change much in a different room. The subwoofer to such a system would depend on the room thoug but coudl be adjusted though.
Very narrow dispersing speakers (horns, big fullrange i.e.) would also not respond very much on the changed room, aside from the bass.
Other scenarios could ofcourse look a lot different. the big AMT is a dipole, so, unless you are avoiding the backwards dispersed sound, would respond very less on the ceiling and floor reflections (because ofthe vertical beaming) but - especally because of the backwards disepersed sound - react very much on the room, which can change the sound impression in a huge way.
You can cont on that any listening room is modified to either stand out certain speaker characteristics positively or negatively to let a 'know' speaker perform in a special wy with a certain room to fill wíth sound. That does not make the pseaker exceptionally bad but probably worse if the following drivers change or the driver management changes. That's often the case not cllaiming or defiying the overall paameters but insted fulfilling otehr claims they provied- or not. The tules of US, theGemran or the UNS fulfoill anyway.
Effects ooft he polcal way to hikd ir unorusib fireuge our prvately personell and is highly connecte tto the possible to conect on the frther frontl.
The FaitalPro 6FE200 was the recommended mid
you could also use the Eminence Alpha 6A. There are others as well, but these are the ones I've tried with the Heil.I think one BP102 would suffice with the port on the front. Two may be overkill. Check out the WinISD and the Eminence cabinet design attached.
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Thanks again Kec, sorry about confusing the mid range question from your last reply....I had Woofers on my mind including cab size, 10 vs 12" but my gut is telling me to go with what will pair best with the mid and Heil.
Academia50, thanks for the reply. I agree with and see your logic in going with tried and true or reputable commercial cabs. This is where I'm asking for opinions of all you more experienced than I. Any other recommendations for available cabs you guys might consider if you were going to build a three way with a Heil would be greatly appreciated.
I'm also really enjoying the rest of the discussion in regard to room responses and preferences. I"ll add this....my personal allure to the Heil goes back to to my first pair of AMT 1Bs in the 70s. Despite the Heils measurements, likes and dislikes of how it reproduces the human voice, etc etc I've been a drummer for over 50 years and have yet to hear a driver that leaves me with the aural illusion that cymbals are in the room. I'd like to hear from others on this. If I've missed a driver that can do that as well please let me know...anyone!
Academia50, thanks for the reply. I agree with and see your logic in going with tried and true or reputable commercial cabs. This is where I'm asking for opinions of all you more experienced than I. Any other recommendations for available cabs you guys might consider if you were going to build a three way with a Heil would be greatly appreciated.
I'm also really enjoying the rest of the discussion in regard to room responses and preferences. I"ll add this....my personal allure to the Heil goes back to to my first pair of AMT 1Bs in the 70s. Despite the Heils measurements, likes and dislikes of how it reproduces the human voice, etc etc I've been a drummer for over 50 years and have yet to hear a driver that leaves me with the aural illusion that cymbals are in the room. I'd like to hear from others on this. If I've missed a driver that can do that as well please let me know...anyone!
Me too! And to think I was going to pay full price a year earlier. I'm glad I waited.
You are welcome !
It was nice to remember those times when we downloaded a container full of ESS speakers ...
I think your admiration for the sound achieved by the AMT-1 tweeter is due to the fact that it is a bipolar source, radiating back and forth.
In fact, the bookshelf model did not achieve the same effect.
I mentioned before JBL 075, many people place it in their cabinets directed backwards, Jean Hiraga does the same with an Altec Duplex 604
6moons industry features: Jean Hiraga
( JBL did it with his Paragon model )
And you can also go for something like that, but it's another price ..... :RE
" Conclusions
The ESS Heil Air Motion Transformer is in a wholly different league from the soft domes that plague most commercial loudspeakers. If the best soft domes are a performance worthy of a great amateur Sunday League side, the ESS AMT is in the European Champions League. This does not means it is absolutely the best treble transducer ever made, at this level, because such a thing does not exist. The ESS Heil Air Motion Transformer is in the top drawer with the horn loaded Decca London Ribbon, the direct radiating Apogee ribbons the Quad ESL57 treble panel, the Focal TDS, lightweight compression drivers and horns like the B&C DE-400TN-8 and the classic Lansing brothers' (James B and Altec). Indeed, the AMT achieves a clarity of transient response unequal elsewhere. "
[Review] ESS Heil Air Motion Transformer - [English]
Here you can read interesting comments from users of Ess AMT 1B, I have not done it completely, but you might find it useful for you.
Greetings friend !
ESS AMT 1B Floorstanding Speakers user reviews : 4.5 out of 5 - 103 reviews - audioreview.com
Greetings friend !
ESS AMT 1B Floorstanding Speakers user reviews : 4.5 out of 5 - 103 reviews - audioreview.com
Right on ICG. Without exaggerating, I think the Heil is a highly data and measurement illusive critter for many reasons. Physically, there is nothing else like it. Frankly I discount much of the published "stuff", even from guys I respect about dips, off axis, ect for two main reasons; I haven't seen irrefutable numbers of consistent measurements performed identically showing the same results , and regardless of what anyone's data or opinion tells me, it's our ears that set our initial impression and whether or not we like a speaker or not.
Thanks Academia 50, I'm sure you are right-on about the bipolar effects and my deeply imbedded impression of how the Heil reproduces cymbals I've sit behind and played for 50 years. Regardless of measurements, reviews, ect, it's in the ears of the beholder and that's what sticks with me. Having moved them A LOT during my military life, I think I have a better grip on how they perform in many more and different rooms and spaces than most people can comprehend....and I still want them.
Thanks for the links to the reviews. One thing that has confused me over the years has been the conspicuous lack of documentation, measurements and reviews of ESS models through their albeit slow evolution. Much of what the experienced and technical minds on these forums write and say frankly are regarding ESS and Heil executions that are decades old. There have been multiple component changes and I can only wonder what the sonic effects have been. Significant changes to the woofer, and passive radiator appear to have significantly cut mass and there have been tweaks to the Heil, it's physical attachment and crossover as well. As a capitalist I want to believe the changes were made to improve the sound of the speakers, but the student of capitalism in me says many were to cut costs. We can only hope Capitalism worked and they accomplished both! lol Point is, I'd really like to hear and see data on the newest models before I set on what could be a misadventure...which brings me full circle to my original question... attempt to build a better ESS or buy a new one and "work with it"?
I'm beginning to think a trip to ESS for a look inside today's enclosures, materials, components and a listen is in order.
Thanks Academia 50, I'm sure you are right-on about the bipolar effects and my deeply imbedded impression of how the Heil reproduces cymbals I've sit behind and played for 50 years. Regardless of measurements, reviews, ect, it's in the ears of the beholder and that's what sticks with me. Having moved them A LOT during my military life, I think I have a better grip on how they perform in many more and different rooms and spaces than most people can comprehend....and I still want them.
Thanks for the links to the reviews. One thing that has confused me over the years has been the conspicuous lack of documentation, measurements and reviews of ESS models through their albeit slow evolution. Much of what the experienced and technical minds on these forums write and say frankly are regarding ESS and Heil executions that are decades old. There have been multiple component changes and I can only wonder what the sonic effects have been. Significant changes to the woofer, and passive radiator appear to have significantly cut mass and there have been tweaks to the Heil, it's physical attachment and crossover as well. As a capitalist I want to believe the changes were made to improve the sound of the speakers, but the student of capitalism in me says many were to cut costs. We can only hope Capitalism worked and they accomplished both! lol Point is, I'd really like to hear and see data on the newest models before I set on what could be a misadventure...which brings me full circle to my original question... attempt to build a better ESS or buy a new one and "work with it"?
I'm beginning to think a trip to ESS for a look inside today's enclosures, materials, components and a listen is in order.
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