Apologies, I'm a newbie (highly novice!) to home audio speaker upgrade and/or repair.
I'd like to state (or rather, perhaps, "assert?") that this thread might (perhaps?) help other novices w/r/t nomenclature.
That's a question, or a comment, or both.
Searching the Web, or Internet, or even this forum (several hours in toto we shall say) have encountered some "fairly egregious" shall we say difficulties?
Here goes:
Searching JBL HLS (e.g., this forum) yields zero results. I have the Technical Manual for (my pair) of JBL HLS 820 speakers, but the "space" between the call letters and numbers presents search parameter "problems" (fairly easily) overcome? It may just be the small number of triplets. So I tried HLS 810 (again internally) and zero threads came back. Then concatenated -- and about 5 threads came back. I tried something very similar externally, i.e., Google Search, added the term diyaudio, and no such similar "problems" manifested. But that was only AFTER an-hour-or-so of chasing down rat holes. I do NOT WISH TO DETRACT, OR DWELL TOO MUCH UPON THIS, as I (believe) that I've more-or-less scoured nearly every (or every other) congruent topic (on the ENTIRE INTERNET Lol!) on/about "replacing tweeters AKA horns on JBL HLS series 410 610 810 820 &tc &tc [are there a couple other sets of call numbers? -- are they "called" actual "call numbers?" -- I'm ignorant of the specificity and/or specifications and/or "if these things" are categorized "somewhere"]. So the rat-holes may have helped me a LOT. In terms of knowing a lot about what I don't know, and a little about what I might need to know.
Again, practically everybody has probably (as a newbie) has to overcome the Search Engine "problems" both at diyaudio and elsewhere.
I'm trying to discover "pertinent" nomenclature (newbie here w/ aprox. 6 [six] sets of floor-standers set/scheduled for "possible repair or possible upgrade") and am vaguely aware Seach Engine Optimization or SEO isn't REALLY what I'm "concerned" (not "complaining") about ... but if this vague query of mine doesn't carry TOO FAR into the weeds, "just sayin' as they say" ... maybe it just sorts-itself-out. ? Any "expert advise" appreciated w/r/t SE or SEO application-for-newbie if (big IF?) such advise can actually be conveyed in 25-words-or-less -- anticipating may not be possible, or too much work LOL! Aplogies; succinctly, nobody is gonna wanna spend hours on a newbie, and I respect that, I think, to the best of my ability. I've rambled FAR too long.
So finally, a SPECIFIC QUESTION:
After scouring all (I could find, about 5 at this forum) threads w/r/t JBL HLS 820 (or rather, e.g., relevant listed in this forum, https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/207954-help-upgrading-jbl-hsl810s-5.html which spells HLS 810 as hls810 no biggie) it sure seems many folks (like ME) have a blown HF driver (all the JBL HLS series have the SAME tweeter I'm fairly confident after examining the numerous HLS Technical Manual) and JBL has DISCONTINUED manufacture of these drivers! Anyhow, I found the OEM tweeter (new/unused) on E pay and purchased the pair today. Others (it would seem) were not so "fortunate."
I "tested" (a very rough term for newbie!) the positive and negative terminals on my HLS 820 w/ a cheap tweeter from an old Sony bookshelf speaker and there's "definite tweets" coming from the placeholder.
Any way of KNOWING if the "old" HLS capacitors are in "pretty good condition?"
Do "people" use these: Dayton Audio OmniMic V2 -- or are there much-less-cost-prohibitive (just "listen?") nearly-as-or-more-effective methods? A cheap (or decent) mic and some freeware? &tc? &tc?
Since I bought them (HLS used $60/pr.) many-months-ago, they always "made noise" and actually sounded "pretty darn good or at least shockingly OK" ESPECIALLY (or rather exclusively) when COUPLED with a pair of
Sony SS-B1000 $25 (used/pr.) bookshelf placed directly atop the HLS floor-standers.
... IOW we (only) "very obviously" noticed the blown 10mm Polycarbonate Domes [psuedo-horns AKA] i.e., blown HLS tweeters when doing A-B channel comparisons w/ Eric Clapton's "No Alibis" e.g., ... and when running the "A + B" 4-way speaker setup: the "average person that came in the room" thought we had "a $1000 speaker setup!" [rattling the pictures off walls] and I'll be quite frank -- that's only very nearly very barely "hyperbole." And that's a whole nother topic ...
Anyways I'd DESPERATELY LIKE TO "avoid wasting anybody's time," and likewise wish "To be of any conceivable assistance."
I UNDERSTAND I'M VERBOSE [READS LOQUACIOUS so don't say long-winded haha] -- was "logged off" three times composing this Lol!
... At a bare minimum can EASILY "report a listening test of these repairs," in days forthcoming, which I presume kinda/sorta signifies nominal membership requirements Lol!
I understand there's a half-dozen questions here, and PLEASE understand half of them are (very probably) rhetorical ... it's crazy but I read some places a "flat response curve might be desirable" and others "a gently sloping" curve and others "ones w/ gentle roll-offs," &tc &tc ... and I'm not really ready to apprehend any of that where things sit. I kinda/sorta "vaguely know" what inductance, capacitance are, with a DECENT grip on resistance &tc &tc, IOW just enough to know I'm largely ignorant, and scared I'm gonna electrocute myself. No kidding this time.
LAST, virtually EVERYTHING I READ ON "R&R the JBL HLS HF drivers" is A) either wrong or B) incomplete. And it's simple. So FOR SURE I can post/demo/photo THAT MUCH for posterity so-to-speak -- if desired -- but I spse. that's discretionary?
I'd like to state (or rather, perhaps, "assert?") that this thread might (perhaps?) help other novices w/r/t nomenclature.
That's a question, or a comment, or both.
Searching the Web, or Internet, or even this forum (several hours in toto we shall say) have encountered some "fairly egregious" shall we say difficulties?
Here goes:
Searching JBL HLS (e.g., this forum) yields zero results. I have the Technical Manual for (my pair) of JBL HLS 820 speakers, but the "space" between the call letters and numbers presents search parameter "problems" (fairly easily) overcome? It may just be the small number of triplets. So I tried HLS 810 (again internally) and zero threads came back. Then concatenated -- and about 5 threads came back. I tried something very similar externally, i.e., Google Search, added the term diyaudio, and no such similar "problems" manifested. But that was only AFTER an-hour-or-so of chasing down rat holes. I do NOT WISH TO DETRACT, OR DWELL TOO MUCH UPON THIS, as I (believe) that I've more-or-less scoured nearly every (or every other) congruent topic (on the ENTIRE INTERNET Lol!) on/about "replacing tweeters AKA horns on JBL HLS series 410 610 810 820 &tc &tc [are there a couple other sets of call numbers? -- are they "called" actual "call numbers?" -- I'm ignorant of the specificity and/or specifications and/or "if these things" are categorized "somewhere"]. So the rat-holes may have helped me a LOT. In terms of knowing a lot about what I don't know, and a little about what I might need to know.
Again, practically everybody has probably (as a newbie) has to overcome the Search Engine "problems" both at diyaudio and elsewhere.
I'm trying to discover "pertinent" nomenclature (newbie here w/ aprox. 6 [six] sets of floor-standers set/scheduled for "possible repair or possible upgrade") and am vaguely aware Seach Engine Optimization or SEO isn't REALLY what I'm "concerned" (not "complaining") about ... but if this vague query of mine doesn't carry TOO FAR into the weeds, "just sayin' as they say" ... maybe it just sorts-itself-out. ? Any "expert advise" appreciated w/r/t SE or SEO application-for-newbie if (big IF?) such advise can actually be conveyed in 25-words-or-less -- anticipating may not be possible, or too much work LOL! Aplogies; succinctly, nobody is gonna wanna spend hours on a newbie, and I respect that, I think, to the best of my ability. I've rambled FAR too long.
So finally, a SPECIFIC QUESTION:
After scouring all (I could find, about 5 at this forum) threads w/r/t JBL HLS 820 (or rather, e.g., relevant listed in this forum, https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/207954-help-upgrading-jbl-hsl810s-5.html which spells HLS 810 as hls810 no biggie) it sure seems many folks (like ME) have a blown HF driver (all the JBL HLS series have the SAME tweeter I'm fairly confident after examining the numerous HLS Technical Manual
I "tested" (a very rough term for newbie!) the positive and negative terminals on my HLS 820 w/ a cheap tweeter from an old Sony bookshelf speaker and there's "definite tweets" coming from the placeholder.
Any way of KNOWING if the "old" HLS capacitors are in "pretty good condition?"
Do "people" use these: Dayton Audio OmniMic V2 -- or are there much-less-cost-prohibitive (just "listen?") nearly-as-or-more-effective methods? A cheap (or decent) mic and some freeware? &tc? &tc?
Since I bought them (HLS used $60/pr.) many-months-ago, they always "made noise" and actually sounded "pretty darn good or at least shockingly OK" ESPECIALLY (or rather exclusively) when COUPLED with a pair of
Sony SS-B1000 $25 (used/pr.) bookshelf placed directly atop the HLS floor-standers.
... IOW we (only) "very obviously" noticed the blown 10mm Polycarbonate Domes [psuedo-horns AKA] i.e., blown HLS tweeters when doing A-B channel comparisons w/ Eric Clapton's "No Alibis" e.g., ... and when running the "A + B" 4-way speaker setup: the "average person that came in the room" thought we had "a $1000 speaker setup!" [rattling the pictures off walls] and I'll be quite frank -- that's only very nearly very barely "hyperbole." And that's a whole nother topic ...
Anyways I'd DESPERATELY LIKE TO "avoid wasting anybody's time," and likewise wish "To be of any conceivable assistance."
I UNDERSTAND I'M VERBOSE [READS LOQUACIOUS so don't say long-winded haha] -- was "logged off" three times composing this Lol!
... At a bare minimum can EASILY "report a listening test of these repairs," in days forthcoming, which I presume kinda/sorta signifies nominal membership requirements Lol!
I understand there's a half-dozen questions here, and PLEASE understand half of them are (very probably) rhetorical ... it's crazy but I read some places a "flat response curve might be desirable" and others "a gently sloping" curve and others "ones w/ gentle roll-offs," &tc &tc ... and I'm not really ready to apprehend any of that where things sit. I kinda/sorta "vaguely know" what inductance, capacitance are, with a DECENT grip on resistance &tc &tc, IOW just enough to know I'm largely ignorant, and scared I'm gonna electrocute myself. No kidding this time.
LAST, virtually EVERYTHING I READ ON "R&R the JBL HLS HF drivers" is A) either wrong or B) incomplete. And it's simple. So FOR SURE I can post/demo/photo THAT MUCH for posterity so-to-speak -- if desired -- but I spse. that's discretionary?
picture (maybe) helps ...
... showing R&R (initial step Removal-end-of-things) 10mm Polycarbonate Dome [w/ pseudo-horn] AKA "JBL HF Driver" ...
... HF Transducer model 101829B [apparently numbers vary -- e.g., my blown left tweeter was stamped "101734P" -- JBL "phone tech" mentioned, however, "TW010B17 is the part number" which also appears in Technical Manual] and furthermore -OR- what-it's-worth "JBL techie" swore-up-and-down the "TW0" is "really spelled 'TWO' despite what you see in B&W."
Gosh that's unfortunate; hobbyists surely clarify "ones a part number other's a model" and blast, perhaps in the typographical-error-milieu I've conflated the two? So somebody (somewhere) is making a typo, and I'm reluctant to repeat it but just did. Lol!
... large view is selected, one can probably understand the 10mm Polycarbonate Dome [assembly] -- was prior Remove -- so-anchored to the "horn" which is called? Anyhow, that assembly is just inserted into the cabinet via 4 knurled-plastic studs, and the double-sided tape (still visible on the cabinet) helps further secure.
To start, I simply CAREFULLY pried the big faux-horn-3-piece assembly from the cabinet (used the standard Painter's 5-1 tool GRADUALLY at various spots) -- and with 1/4 [quarter] turn (the much smaller aprox. 2" round) plastic anchor comes away along with so-called [by me] driver/anchor sub-assembly. Finally, another aprox. 1/3rd turn removes the HF driver itself from the anchor. Whew! IOW the 2" anchor resides between driver and horn, and horn itself affixes-all-3-to-the-cabinet.
Easy process, yet with patience to avoid breakage. Took at least 10 minutes (the first time!) but I'm slow, and had hurried I'd have perhaps broken the big faux-horn (maybe called? it's not a "shroud" ... help w/ nomenclature?)
Anyhow, there's a very thin wiring coil around the 10mm dome [Polycarbonate ? ] cap, and that wire/lead had melted away from the solder.
Here's a 'Tube video that illustrates in 30-seconds EXACTLY what'd happened to my new (used) speakers:
YouTube
I'm not (at all) 100% convinced Mr. 'Tube had "Actually COMPLETED any so-called repairs" on the tweeter problem he boasts of "JBL tweeter repair"; who knows. Hard to say. Slightly deceptive, is all.
Anyhow, Courtesy of US AUDIO MART and/or Courtesy jaspergarupa.sulit.com.ph much better image of JBL HLS 820 speakers:
... showing R&R (initial step Removal-end-of-things) 10mm Polycarbonate Dome [w/ pseudo-horn] AKA "JBL HF Driver" ...
... HF Transducer model 101829B [apparently numbers vary -- e.g., my blown left tweeter was stamped "101734P" -- JBL "phone tech" mentioned, however, "TW010B17 is the part number" which also appears in Technical Manual] and furthermore -OR- what-it's-worth "JBL techie" swore-up-and-down the "TW0" is "really spelled 'TWO' despite what you see in B&W."
Gosh that's unfortunate; hobbyists surely clarify "ones a part number other's a model" and blast, perhaps in the typographical-error-milieu I've conflated the two? So somebody (somewhere) is making a typo, and I'm reluctant to repeat it but just did. Lol!
... large view is selected, one can probably understand the 10mm Polycarbonate Dome [assembly] -- was prior Remove -- so-anchored to the "horn" which is called? Anyhow, that assembly is just inserted into the cabinet via 4 knurled-plastic studs, and the double-sided tape (still visible on the cabinet) helps further secure.
To start, I simply CAREFULLY pried the big faux-horn-3-piece assembly from the cabinet (used the standard Painter's 5-1 tool GRADUALLY at various spots) -- and with 1/4 [quarter] turn (the much smaller aprox. 2" round) plastic anchor comes away along with so-called [by me] driver/anchor sub-assembly. Finally, another aprox. 1/3rd turn removes the HF driver itself from the anchor. Whew! IOW the 2" anchor resides between driver and horn, and horn itself affixes-all-3-to-the-cabinet.
Easy process, yet with patience to avoid breakage. Took at least 10 minutes (the first time!) but I'm slow, and had hurried I'd have perhaps broken the big faux-horn (maybe called? it's not a "shroud" ... help w/ nomenclature?)
Anyhow, there's a very thin wiring coil around the 10mm dome [Polycarbonate ? ] cap, and that wire/lead had melted away from the solder.
Here's a 'Tube video that illustrates in 30-seconds EXACTLY what'd happened to my new (used) speakers:
YouTube
I'm not (at all) 100% convinced Mr. 'Tube had "Actually COMPLETED any so-called repairs" on the tweeter problem he boasts of "JBL tweeter repair"; who knows. Hard to say. Slightly deceptive, is all.
Anyhow, Courtesy of US AUDIO MART and/or Courtesy jaspergarupa.sulit.com.ph much better image of JBL HLS 820 speakers:
Maybe overkill, but I took these three pics in unlikely event ... still figuring out "how to" resize to 640X480 from imgur to message boards. Supposing other sizes are do-able, but a systematic or default value for me (the newbie) makes some sort of sense.
It seems you showed the driver was at fault when you tested another in its place. Another way to conclude this is to measure across its terminals with a meter to see whether the coil has continuity.
I recall when google began using algorithms to rank search results, the quality dropped. Electronics is not exactly 'popular' from that point of view.
Worse still, it wouldn't take my search terms literally. It would change them to the nearest looking popular thing and bury the good results. I've always had better luck with less progressive search engines.
I recall when google began using algorithms to rank search results, the quality dropped. Electronics is not exactly 'popular' from that point of view.
Worse still, it wouldn't take my search terms literally. It would change them to the nearest looking popular thing and bury the good results. I've always had better luck with less progressive search engines.
Golly it's starting to become apparent something like Dayton Audio OmniMic &tc &tc might be forever "beyond my capabilities," yet one (the newbie) such as I can't help but wonder if "purely listening by ear" is the ONLY resort ... and I'd have to assume (knowing so little) that A/B type direct comparison with listening to a "known high-quality" reference (A) speaker ... which might be perfectly fine in the final analysis.
Thanks Kindly in advance to anybody might choose respond.
The generous thing might be "leave the thread be" so-to-speak such a convoluted/hackneyed thread and as it dissolves into perpetuity and I gain a little (or rather LOT Lol!) more "hands on" with speakers, 90% of my long-windiness should evaporate. Can't be THAT bad to think (or rather ramble) out-loud once-or-twice in life. Gosh is embarrassing re-reading my own ineptitude.
Thanks Kindly in advance to anybody might choose respond.
The generous thing might be "leave the thread be" so-to-speak such a convoluted/hackneyed thread and as it dissolves into perpetuity and I gain a little (or rather LOT Lol!) more "hands on" with speakers, 90% of my long-windiness should evaporate. Can't be THAT bad to think (or rather ramble) out-loud once-or-twice in life. Gosh is embarrassing re-reading my own ineptitude.
Audax:
TW010F1 - Solen Electronique Inc.
The lens attached to the tweeter rotates about 1/8th of a turn or so. Remove the lens off the product above, and attach the new motor to your JBL horn. Plug in the terminals and push the horn back into the cabinet.
I can vouch that the Fs and the DC Re are a match for the long discontinued JBL replacement part. These were used to fix a pair of HLS 810's IIRC.
Madisound link here:
Audax TW010F1 10 mm Polymer Dome Tweeter
TW010F1 - Solen Electronique Inc.
The lens attached to the tweeter rotates about 1/8th of a turn or so. Remove the lens off the product above, and attach the new motor to your JBL horn. Plug in the terminals and push the horn back into the cabinet.
I can vouch that the Fs and the DC Re are a match for the long discontinued JBL replacement part. These were used to fix a pair of HLS 810's IIRC.
Madisound link here:
Audax TW010F1 10 mm Polymer Dome Tweeter
Ah, that's FANTASTIC. Thanks so very kindly.
So now we kinda/sorta know more precisely nomenclature w/r/t what I'm calling "Horn assembly" ... it consists of
[for sure] A) "Lens" or rather "Flange"
[not 100% sure] B) "Horn?"
[sorta sure] C) "10mm Polycarbonate HF Transducer [according JBL]" or "10mm Polyamide/Polymer Tweeter (or even 10mm polymer dome Voice Coil)"
{The reference in the .pdf to a *1/2" polymer dome - 8ohms* confuses me.}
Also reading that:
The flangeless version was used in millions of auto sound coax systems.
Additionally:
Nom. Power DIN 25 W.
Elsewhere:
Power Handling (RMS) 25 W and finally
(IEC) 25W.
Hm. Aha.
I'm familiar w/ RMS wattage ratings as well as Peak/Max wattage. "DIN" and "IEC" is new to me. No matter, no need to segue.
So, the JBL HLS 820 Technical Manual specs a power 250W for my HLS (double-woofer) 820 speakers.
That's 250 with a zero! i.e., not 25.
For sake of argument, let's say 250W is the peak/max wattage, or rather -- to start -- not. Let's say 250W RMS. That means, then, perhaps, JBL was "OFF" BY AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE?!
-OR-
Or rather, "Interpolating," the wattage rating on these speakers by JBL was (probably?) "off" by at least 1/2 AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE? -- depending, of course, on the configuration of the crossovers? -- That's more/less a rhetorical question ...
Suggesting, roughly, I THINK (pondering out loud) that, "Depending the crossovers," the woofers, e.g., might receive 50W while the tweeters only 25W ... &tc &tc?"
That's a DOUBLING (or halving or whatever) -- not 5x's -- or (even) "delta factor -- fudge factor -- possibly a full order of magnitude [if one wished that they 'sounded proper']." Just giving a rough guesstimate, is all...
Apologies, that's getting way-out-into-the-weeds. It's "probably moot point." Is entirely possible [(JBL used the SAME tweeter with the DIFFERENT (double woofer) enclosure] that JBL "wattage ratings" on HLS-series is unreliable. Also (might) help explain why (some) complained of "blown tweeters on HLS" and (in particular) "blown tweeters on HLS 820" [which again were "JBL rated 250W"] -- while "other in HLS series," e.g., HLS 610 w/ single woofer -- was much more conservatively rated 125W.
Because they sound terrible now, obviously, all we aim to do PRESENTLY is "R&R tweeters" and then "see if they sound OK."
So for the moment, "We're golden!"
THANKS KINDLY!! ... diyuser2010, ye'r the GOODS!🙂
PS: I'm not able to understand what the abbreviations "Fs and the DC Re are a match ..." means ... I'm totally 100% "newbie to the speaker hobby." So then there's this (other rhetorical!) question, "How in the heck does somebody actually (Lol!) 'discover' or 'find out' (a little more) about How-To I.D. 'these driver replacements' or (maybe) in particular w/r/t JBL e.g.? That (very well) may be "far too lengthy/complicated/involved a question" to even begin to anticipate, but if anybody (not necessarily just kind diyuser2010) actually HAS any "ideas" or "suggestions" (or even points of reference) I wouldn't hold it against ya Lol! ... I understand that might be "too complicated to answer conveniently" yet (hopefully) doesn't hurt to ask, so-to-speak ... Maybe folks just do a "How To Identify audio drivers" type-of-search ... maybe not? ... maybe just "take it one day at a time," and is BETTER NOT to worry about it, and just wait until it comes up. REGARDLESS, THIS HAS BEEN TREMENDOUSLY HELPFUL!
These are (list price) $699/pr. units can be "fixed" for $20 in parts. Once tested, we'll know for sure...
... It (perhaps) helps to begin to (roughly) understand that "Polyamide" and "polymer" and "Polycarbonate" are terms that are (at least sometimes) used interchangeably? ...
Essentially, I'm "guessing" this is the SAME:
Audax TW010E1 10 mm Polymer Dome Tweeter
and at Sale Price: $5.90 is cheapest of the three; other two Price: $7.80, or 11.87$ CAD EACH ... IOW I just did a Google search w/ "Polyamide polymer Polycarbonate 10mm speaker driver voice coil" w/ parameters and sure LOOKS like the Audax TW010F1 and Audax TW010E1 are IDENTICAL (for my purposes as I'm "discarding" the Flange ... as (apparently) "there actually is no" so-called flangeless version? Again, regardless, the nomenclature, the terminology, made a "Google search" for these replacements "at least within the realm of feasibility, kinda/sorta, for me, the newbie, anyway." Perhaps I'm overstating the obvious.
Thanks Allen,
I see, but I suppose maybe the "oddity" and/or "hurdles" are manifold; when I searched diyaudio INTERNALLY the results were very poor;
HLS 820 and/or HLS 810 (with the space) yielded nil -- but when concatenated i.e., hls810 "bingo" it came up (showing various diyaudio threads ...)
Alternatively, a more general (Google) search of HLS 810 with the space ranked diyaudio (posts or threads) relatively high, making it relatively easy.
So, in this particular instance, the Google search seemed far superior the DIYaudio.com search engine.
So, I'm starting to think, using "spaces" w/r/t model numbers (internal to DIYaudio) isn't always the best place to start, is all.
It's way off-topic anyhow, but does one "theoretically start a whole new thread" for the newbie (me) -- to understand How To use search engines "to locate [home/speaker] electronics parts?" Not really sure. Instincts say OP (that's me) oughta perhaps research that on his own Lol! I spse I'm suggesting MAYBE there's an EXTANT document i.e., hyperlink, and I also wasn't sure [if JBL e.g.] has/ had a collated list of model numbers. I'm afraid it's borderline rude to list such digressions in danger of contaminating [further garble on my part] what [mighta-been] a decent "introductory-type" thread w/r/t JBL HLS-series tweeter R&R. Honestly, I've been attempting (with very minimal success Lol!) "censoring" myself regarding myriad side-issues. Anybody "happens to comment and/or assist further" on this thread is only gravy -- and again -- many thanx in advance! ---
The "little bit of frustration" comes in where I'm asking (basically myself) "Why, if (a big IF) Technical Manual(s) are available" e.g., then "don't folks post referents to model numbers close-to-exactly as published," or alternatively, maybe there's good reason? It's a (minor) mystery to me, the newbie.
I did see e.g., article like this:
The Case for Vertical Search in the Electronics Industry
Vertical search engines focus on a specific type or set of industry data and provide a level of depth into a particular subject which traditional web search engines typically cannot ...
But it's prolly overkill ... main goal of inquiry (this thread) has been 100% satisfactorily accomplished ...
Wow, what a fantastic website DIYaudio.com ... Advanced hobbyists are actually very helpful towards (reads: also extremely patient w/) total rookie (with overcooked imagination) like me -- I'm stoked; practically restores my faith in humanity Lol! Glad Tidings!
Last note nomenclature:
"High frequency drivers in PA horns are often referred to as 'compression drivers' from the mode of acoustic coupling between the driver diaphragm and the horn throat." -Wiki
So looking closer, I saw JBL calls the horn-part simply "Plastic Horn" and I spse that's (maybe?) why some folks have called the HLS-series [3-piece] tweeter [assembly] "faux horn" beings apparently there's (perhaps?) no real "acoustic coupling" happening with these tweeters.
"Many soft dome tweeter diaphragms are thermoformed from polyester film, or silk or polyester fabric that has been impregnated with a polymer resin ... " -Wiki
... which I think helps suggest (to me a little anyhow) "Polyamide" and "polymer" and "Polycarbonate" 10mm dome HF drivers.
So there's plastic in them thar domes!
"High frequency drivers in PA horns are often referred to as 'compression drivers' from the mode of acoustic coupling between the driver diaphragm and the horn throat." -Wiki
So looking closer, I saw JBL calls the horn-part simply "Plastic Horn" and I spse that's (maybe?) why some folks have called the HLS-series [3-piece] tweeter [assembly] "faux horn" beings apparently there's (perhaps?) no real "acoustic coupling" happening with these tweeters.
"Many soft dome tweeter diaphragms are thermoformed from polyester film, or silk or polyester fabric that has been impregnated with a polymer resin ... " -Wiki
... which I think helps suggest (to me a little anyhow) "Polyamide" and "polymer" and "Polycarbonate" 10mm dome HF drivers.
So there's plastic in them thar domes!
Last edited:
The relative importance of Watts tends to be over-rated so that even the unknowledgeable customer feels as though they understand. There is more to consider.
DiyAudio search is good. It just has idiosyncracies.
E.g. After a failed 'and' search, it reverts to an 'or' search so you have to refresh the blank search page.
The default is show threads, I often prefer show posts.
The search titles only can be useful a small amount of the time.
You can also use "quote" marks to avoid the search engine parsing your spaces. Otherwise it takes the term as two words.
The compression driver has an exit smaller than the dome. The horn has an entry the same size as the compression driver exit.
Ah, that's FANTASTIC. Thanks so very kindly.
So now we kinda/sorta know more precisely nomenclature w/r/t what I'm calling "Horn assembly" ... it consists of
[for sure] A) "Lens" or rather "Flange"
[not 100% sure] B) "Horn?"
[sorta sure] C) "10mm Polycarbonate HF Transducer [according JBL]" or "10mm Polyamide/Polymer Tweeter (or even 10mm polymer dome Voice Coil)"
{The reference in the .pdf to a *1/2" polymer dome - 8ohms* confuses me.}
Also reading that:
The flangeless version was used in millions of auto sound coax systems.
Additionally:
Nom. Power DIN 25 W.
Elsewhere:
Power Handling (RMS) 25 W and finally
(IEC) 25W.
Hm. Aha.
I'm familiar w/ RMS wattage ratings as well as Peak/Max wattage. "DIN" and "IEC" is new to me. No matter, no need to segue.
So, the JBL HLS 820 Technical Manual specs a power 250W for my HLS (double-woofer) 820 speakers.
That's 250 with a zero! i.e., not 25.
For sake of argument, let's say 250W is the peak/max wattage, or rather -- to start -- not. Let's say 250W RMS. That means, then, perhaps, JBL was "OFF" BY AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE?!
-OR-
Or rather, "Interpolating," the wattage rating on these speakers by JBL was (probably?) "off" by at least 1/2 AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE? -- depending, of course, on the configuration of the crossovers? -- That's more/less a rhetorical question ...
Suggesting, roughly, I THINK (pondering out loud) that, "Depending the crossovers," the woofers, e.g., might receive 50W while the tweeters only 25W ... &tc &tc?"
That's a DOUBLING (or halving or whatever) -- not 5x's -- or (even) "delta factor -- fudge factor -- possibly a full order of magnitude [if one wished that they 'sounded proper']." Just giving a rough guesstimate, is all...
Apologies, that's getting way-out-into-the-weeds. It's "probably moot point." Is entirely possible [(JBL used the SAME tweeter with the DIFFERENT (double woofer) enclosure] that JBL "wattage ratings" on HLS-series is unreliable. Also (might) help explain why (some) complained of "blown tweeters on HLS" and (in particular) "blown tweeters on HLS 820" [which again were "JBL rated 250W"] -- while "other in HLS series," e.g., HLS 610 w/ single woofer -- was much more conservatively rated 125W.
Because they sound terrible now, obviously, all we aim to do PRESENTLY is "R&R tweeters" and then "see if they sound OK."
So for the moment, "We're golden!"
THANKS KINDLY!! ... diyuser2010, ye'r the GOODS!🙂
PS: I'm not able to understand what the abbreviations "Fs and the DC Re are a match ..." means ... I'm totally 100% "newbie to the speaker hobby." So then there's this (other rhetorical!) question, "How in the heck does somebody actually (Lol!) 'discover' or 'find out' (a little more) about How-To I.D. 'these driver replacements' or (maybe) in particular w/r/t JBL e.g.? That (very well) may be "far too lengthy/complicated/involved a question" to even begin to anticipate, but if anybody (not necessarily just kind diyuser2010) actually HAS any "ideas" or "suggestions" (or even points of reference) I wouldn't hold it against ya Lol! ... I understand that might be "too complicated to answer conveniently" yet (hopefully) doesn't hurt to ask, so-to-speak ... Maybe folks just do a "How To Identify audio drivers" type-of-search ... maybe not? ... maybe just "take it one day at a time," and is BETTER NOT to worry about it, and just wait until it comes up. REGARDLESS, THIS HAS BEEN TREMENDOUSLY HELPFUL!
These are (list price) $699/pr. units can be "fixed" for $20 in parts. Once tested, we'll know for sure...
... It (perhaps) helps to begin to (roughly) understand that "Polyamide" and "polymer" and "Polycarbonate" are terms that are (at least sometimes) used interchangeably? ...
Essentially, I'm "guessing" this is the SAME:
Audax TW010E1 10 mm Polymer Dome Tweeter
and at Sale Price: $5.90 is cheapest of the three; other two Price: $7.80, or 11.87$ CAD EACH ... IOW I just did a Google search w/ "Polyamide polymer Polycarbonate 10mm speaker driver voice coil" w/ parameters and sure LOOKS like the Audax TW010F1 and Audax TW010E1 are IDENTICAL (for my purposes as I'm "discarding" the Flange ... as (apparently) "there actually is no" so-called flangeless version? Again, regardless, the nomenclature, the terminology, made a "Google search" for these replacements "at least within the realm of feasibility, kinda/sorta, for me, the newbie, anyway." Perhaps I'm overstating the obvious.
You're welcome.
250 watts is a rather exorbitant suggested power handling. The tweeters will only handle a few watts of power continuously, regardless of their official suggested rating.
The transient nature of music, low duty cycle and spectral power distribution will mean that the average power to the tweeter is quite low compared to the woofers.
Nylon is a type of polyamide.
Lexan is a brand of polycarbonate.
Yes Allen,
"DiyAudio search is good. It just has idiosyncracies ..."
All of that DiyAudio SE "idiosyncratic w/r/t parameters" is extremely helpful.
In fact, after dozen-or-so trial/error I (the new user) was beginning to "sense" part of what you'd outlined.
I'll re-read what you've put w/r/t SE a couple times. It takes a second to digest.
"DiyAudio search is good. It just has idiosyncracies ..."
All of that DiyAudio SE "idiosyncratic w/r/t parameters" is extremely helpful.
In fact, after dozen-or-so trial/error I (the new user) was beginning to "sense" part of what you'd outlined.
I'll re-read what you've put w/r/t SE a couple times. It takes a second to digest.
"Nylon is a type of polyamide.
Lexan is a brand of polycarbonate."
It takes a bit to digest "concepts of plastics".
I was starting to recall "plastics w/r/t polycarbons" and a little refresher (off topic) on my part warranted.
Lexan is a brand of polycarbonate."
It takes a bit to digest "concepts of plastics".
I was starting to recall "plastics w/r/t polycarbons" and a little refresher (off topic) on my part warranted.
I've managed to make this thread far too diffuse; even from learning (just by reading the forums over last few days) I've endeavored to learn:
"I've managed (somehow Lol!) to put forth - nearly - dozens of wrongheaded ideas and/or questions."
Nonetheless the responses have been patient, tolerant, practical, &tc &tc.
With 5 pairs of floorstanding speakers to recap, now thinking I've got LOTS more reading to do (and perhaps VERY little posting Lol! ...).
Now seems SURE -- posting, for me, now means "less is more".
Sure looks like a phenomenal hobby, to be sure ...
"I've managed (somehow Lol!) to put forth - nearly - dozens of wrongheaded ideas and/or questions."
Nonetheless the responses have been patient, tolerant, practical, &tc &tc.
With 5 pairs of floorstanding speakers to recap, now thinking I've got LOTS more reading to do (and perhaps VERY little posting Lol! ...).
Now seems SURE -- posting, for me, now means "less is more".
Sure looks like a phenomenal hobby, to be sure ...
Much is mentioned about this process. Less, about the more important network of which this capacitor is a part..or the more important acoustic properties that are behind every successful crossover.
diyuser2010 & Allen;
Many thanks -- wasn't sure if -- or at all -- the extent newbie like me would be tolerated at DIYaudio ...
All my "very limited acquaintance" comes from C- grasp of Calculus and O.D.E. with D+ grasp of Newtonian celestial mechanics. ... D--- in Hamiltonian/Lagrangian mechanics. Some exposure to P.D.E's and Fourier analysis. IOW at-one-time-or-other I "crawled through" a whole mess (of the mechanics of) calculus with VERY narrow - sporadic & isolated - written applications only - to RLC circuitry. University level. They took pity upon me Lol! I think I soldered (w/ some sort of solder station?) once or twice in my entire life, and it went OK. I can turn wrenches and stuff like that. I replaced the LCA (lower A-arm) on both a Chrysler and Oldsmobile over last few years. Replaced an alternator, thermostat, and starter motor &tc &tc on a car, and a truck. Went fine. Read the Chiltons, or FSM, or Haynes, and automotive forums, else those procedures might have been disastrous.
I'm slow, but CAN "follow instructions" and generally read/retain enough to avoid bodily injury.
BUT APPLIED ELECTRONICS IS A WHOLE NEW BALLGAME.
So, golly, I've got these 5 sets of OLD -- pretty-good-looking&sounding floor-standers -- (took front/back pics of 4, and credited the photo of the 5th, JBL HLS 820, earlier):
For time being, that's neither here nor there; it just-so-happens that about a-year-ago I also acquired a pair of bookshelf speakers.
Sony SS-B-1000 bookshelf speakers to be precise. $20 at the Goodwill or some such.
A-month-ago, the following Review (the second Amazon Review, in the link, attributed Mr. "Mark42") -- which is actually a "Reader's Digest version" of modification of these speakers -- came to my attention
[easily found, it's obviously Review that reads "Mark42 -- Top Contributor 5.0 out of 5 stars -- Much better than expected! November 2, 2012 ..." and for time-being 11 "Comments" for time-being aren't helpful "filling in the missing details"]:
Amazon.com: Customer reviews: Sony SS-B1000 5-1/4-Inch Bookshelf Speakers (Pair)
Fortunately, MOST of the details (I discovered a-few-days-ago) ARE provided (or rather "suggested") by the following (also Mark42) AVSforum DIY article below called "Fun Speaker Project":
Fun speaker project. - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
There's a couple things --
It looks like, towards end of the thread, the last post (and all this was "pretty easy, pretty quick reading" [despite my lack of understanding -- a different thing]) suggests Dayton Audio XO2W-4.5K 2-Way Speaker Crossover 4,500 Hz (closer to [Mark42's] 5kHz frequency) "could work."
Is it OK if I make a couple comments/questions? [rhetorical];
I like to use my name, 'cause it's easiest, so ... I'm Paul, Paul the Painter ...
Anyhow, Paul here, has recognized that PERHAPS 2-way XO's (networks) actually CAN SOMETIMES be "ballparked," in lieu of Allen's remark, "Much is mentioned about this process. Less, about the more important network of which this capacitor is a part ..." which suggests, to Paul that "merely recapping" (relatively blindly) isn't -- is NOT always the best default, knee-jerk, alternative.
I'm also STARTING to understand that "testing existing speaker caps" isn't always, shall we say, "feasible" or rather, "practicable." Apparently capacitors (generally - for accuracy - if required?) must be removed, and even then ...
However, Mark42 (apparently) makes a (reasonable?) inference -- he sees that the 7.2-ohm is "finally corrected" to 7.8-ohm -- thus closer the "anticipated" 8.0-ohm impedance printed on the [or my] speaker? For sure he's drawing SOME SORT of inference w/r/t job-well-done, in addition to the inference(s) about "which XO, to start, in order to replace existing [albeit nominal] XO with." Is it ... does one? How the heck? He "reads impedance" and concludes "job well done?"
I did read this other DIY article Dennis Murphy Pioneer SP-BS22-LR DIY Modifications over at AudioKarma.org:
Dennis Murphy Pioneer SP-BS22-LR DIY Modifications | Audiokarma Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
However, I don't own those units, and (furthermore?) is his [Dennis Murphy] home-made XO really that much better-tuned than one-off-the-shelf?
{Lastly, do folks recommend books on the subject? -- understandably, I'm almost reluctant to ask that question. Books are (sometimes) designed "merely to sell." That's the NATURE of capitalism. We write books; often we could care less if people, or whomever, general audience, actually READ them; we (sometimes) care only if people BUY them. I don't mean to be cynical. For 50 years (or more??) publishers, all major publishers, care less "about your present book" and MORE about "the SERIES of books" you plan on writing. ... Alternatively, I could ask, "Hyperlinks on the subject?" ... same or similar reticence. I've been reading numerous threads on "basic recapping" and reading about "essential tools and supplies."
So, that's almost rhetorical.}
Yet the specifics, most, many, almost "all?" of this particular Sony SS-B1000 rebuild, is "almost complete on the Internet," and (apart my own ignorance and buffoonery) almost begs for "a little more conclusiveness."
... Mark42 doesn't say WHY "It [1.2uF] effectively crossed the tweeter at 16khz!" He offers no "calculation," not even a down-and-dirty one (the one we like Lol!)
He didn't suggest any indication WHY "[the] two way passive crossovers [that] cross at about 5khz (based on the values of caps on the board)," but he does mention, pointedly, "BTW, if anyone is thinking of building a 2-way speaker, those Infinity crossovers are pretty nice. I could not buy the individual components for that price!" And finally, Mark42 adds, "But if the tweeter is going to be replaced, then get one with a nice flat response that can handle a few watts at the 3000hz range and it should really work well with the HOP woofer." So maybe the Dayton Audio XO2W-2.5K 2-Way Speaker Crossover 2,500 Hz might work best (with a new tweeter?)
If I can (should be able) to complete Sony SS-B1000 rebuild, along the lines Mark42 has suggested, that'd be my first project as "100% novice hobbyist," and maybe (big MAYBE) we'd have a relatively complete "Mark42 Sony SS B1000 DIY Modifications" article? (Compiled in arguably disparate fashion?) Couldn't blame it on Paul, Lol!
Who knows. This is all experimental to me ...
Many thanks -- wasn't sure if -- or at all -- the extent newbie like me would be tolerated at DIYaudio ...
All my "very limited acquaintance" comes from C- grasp of Calculus and O.D.E. with D+ grasp of Newtonian celestial mechanics. ... D--- in Hamiltonian/Lagrangian mechanics. Some exposure to P.D.E's and Fourier analysis. IOW at-one-time-or-other I "crawled through" a whole mess (of the mechanics of) calculus with VERY narrow - sporadic & isolated - written applications only - to RLC circuitry. University level. They took pity upon me Lol! I think I soldered (w/ some sort of solder station?) once or twice in my entire life, and it went OK. I can turn wrenches and stuff like that. I replaced the LCA (lower A-arm) on both a Chrysler and Oldsmobile over last few years. Replaced an alternator, thermostat, and starter motor &tc &tc on a car, and a truck. Went fine. Read the Chiltons, or FSM, or Haynes, and automotive forums, else those procedures might have been disastrous.
I'm slow, but CAN "follow instructions" and generally read/retain enough to avoid bodily injury.
BUT APPLIED ELECTRONICS IS A WHOLE NEW BALLGAME.
So, golly, I've got these 5 sets of OLD -- pretty-good-looking&sounding floor-standers -- (took front/back pics of 4, and credited the photo of the 5th, JBL HLS 820, earlier):
For time being, that's neither here nor there; it just-so-happens that about a-year-ago I also acquired a pair of bookshelf speakers.
Sony SS-B-1000 bookshelf speakers to be precise. $20 at the Goodwill or some such.
A-month-ago, the following Review (the second Amazon Review, in the link, attributed Mr. "Mark42") -- which is actually a "Reader's Digest version" of modification of these speakers -- came to my attention
[easily found, it's obviously Review that reads "Mark42 -- Top Contributor 5.0 out of 5 stars -- Much better than expected! November 2, 2012 ..." and for time-being 11 "Comments" for time-being aren't helpful "filling in the missing details"]:
Amazon.com: Customer reviews: Sony SS-B1000 5-1/4-Inch Bookshelf Speakers (Pair)
Fortunately, MOST of the details (I discovered a-few-days-ago) ARE provided (or rather "suggested") by the following (also Mark42) AVSforum DIY article below called "Fun Speaker Project":
Fun speaker project. - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
There's a couple things --
It looks like, towards end of the thread, the last post (and all this was "pretty easy, pretty quick reading" [despite my lack of understanding -- a different thing]) suggests Dayton Audio XO2W-4.5K 2-Way Speaker Crossover 4,500 Hz (closer to [Mark42's] 5kHz frequency) "could work."
Is it OK if I make a couple comments/questions? [rhetorical];
I like to use my name, 'cause it's easiest, so ... I'm Paul, Paul the Painter ...
Anyhow, Paul here, has recognized that PERHAPS 2-way XO's (networks) actually CAN SOMETIMES be "ballparked," in lieu of Allen's remark, "Much is mentioned about this process. Less, about the more important network of which this capacitor is a part ..." which suggests, to Paul that "merely recapping" (relatively blindly) isn't -- is NOT always the best default, knee-jerk, alternative.
I'm also STARTING to understand that "testing existing speaker caps" isn't always, shall we say, "feasible" or rather, "practicable." Apparently capacitors (generally - for accuracy - if required?) must be removed, and even then ...
However, Mark42 (apparently) makes a (reasonable?) inference -- he sees that the 7.2-ohm is "finally corrected" to 7.8-ohm -- thus closer the "anticipated" 8.0-ohm impedance printed on the [or my] speaker? For sure he's drawing SOME SORT of inference w/r/t job-well-done, in addition to the inference(s) about "which XO, to start, in order to replace existing [albeit nominal] XO with." Is it ... does one? How the heck? He "reads impedance" and concludes "job well done?"
I did read this other DIY article Dennis Murphy Pioneer SP-BS22-LR DIY Modifications over at AudioKarma.org:
Dennis Murphy Pioneer SP-BS22-LR DIY Modifications | Audiokarma Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
However, I don't own those units, and (furthermore?) is his [Dennis Murphy] home-made XO really that much better-tuned than one-off-the-shelf?
{Lastly, do folks recommend books on the subject? -- understandably, I'm almost reluctant to ask that question. Books are (sometimes) designed "merely to sell." That's the NATURE of capitalism. We write books; often we could care less if people, or whomever, general audience, actually READ them; we (sometimes) care only if people BUY them. I don't mean to be cynical. For 50 years (or more??) publishers, all major publishers, care less "about your present book" and MORE about "the SERIES of books" you plan on writing. ... Alternatively, I could ask, "Hyperlinks on the subject?" ... same or similar reticence. I've been reading numerous threads on "basic recapping" and reading about "essential tools and supplies."
So, that's almost rhetorical.}
Yet the specifics, most, many, almost "all?" of this particular Sony SS-B1000 rebuild, is "almost complete on the Internet," and (apart my own ignorance and buffoonery) almost begs for "a little more conclusiveness."
... Mark42 doesn't say WHY "It [1.2uF] effectively crossed the tweeter at 16khz!" He offers no "calculation," not even a down-and-dirty one (the one we like Lol!)
He didn't suggest any indication WHY "[the] two way passive crossovers [that] cross at about 5khz (based on the values of caps on the board)," but he does mention, pointedly, "BTW, if anyone is thinking of building a 2-way speaker, those Infinity crossovers are pretty nice. I could not buy the individual components for that price!" And finally, Mark42 adds, "But if the tweeter is going to be replaced, then get one with a nice flat response that can handle a few watts at the 3000hz range and it should really work well with the HOP woofer." So maybe the Dayton Audio XO2W-2.5K 2-Way Speaker Crossover 2,500 Hz might work best (with a new tweeter?)
If I can (should be able) to complete Sony SS-B1000 rebuild, along the lines Mark42 has suggested, that'd be my first project as "100% novice hobbyist," and maybe (big MAYBE) we'd have a relatively complete "Mark42 Sony SS B1000 DIY Modifications" article? (Compiled in arguably disparate fashion?) Couldn't blame it on Paul, Lol!
Who knows. This is all experimental to me ...
I wanted to say, or ask, or suggest, maybe it's OK to ask, ad hoc, flippantly, "why would a 1.2 microFarad cap cross a (this) tweeter (effectively - I'm assuming might mean way it's wired?) at 16Khz?" BECAUSE I did not know if there were any advantage to learning reverse-engineering-style ... Heuristically.
Same "style" or lack thereof with WHY "[the] two way passive crossovers [that] cross at about 5khz (based on the values of caps on the board)?
IOW maybe those are just nonsense inquiries ... yet one can't HELP but be curious ... about "calculations on the fly" -- if indeed those are. Who writes "that book?" Lol!
I'm not trying to be silly; maybe there IS a "resource for the layman cap and/or XO replacement beginner?" ... doubtful, yes, sorry about that. I'm not at ALL averse to calculations per se, did many thousands once-upon-a-time. Whether "right" ones or not ...
Same "style" or lack thereof with WHY "[the] two way passive crossovers [that] cross at about 5khz (based on the values of caps on the board)?
IOW maybe those are just nonsense inquiries ... yet one can't HELP but be curious ... about "calculations on the fly" -- if indeed those are. Who writes "that book?" Lol!
I'm not trying to be silly; maybe there IS a "resource for the layman cap and/or XO replacement beginner?" ... doubtful, yes, sorry about that. I'm not at ALL averse to calculations per se, did many thousands once-upon-a-time. Whether "right" ones or not ...
When he measured 7.2 ohms, this is the resistance of the woofer voice coil. The capacitor in series with the tweeter prevents the meter from including it in the measurement. The 7.8 came about because the replacement crossover had 0.6 ohms of resistance in the wire used to make the inductor in series with the woofer.
The addition of damping material inside the box is worthwhile. Here higher frequencies that reflect back through the cone can be troublesome.
The woofer may have an undesirable top end (rough through the lower treble). They usually reach a point where the cone is unable to remain as a piston, and bends. It is better to cut this region out, however it is often taken advantage of in cheaper speakers, by filling a hole left by the tweeter which I'll explain next.
Crossing the tweeter high with a single capacitor is a way to ensure that it can handle a little power, without having to fork out for an inductor. It may leave a hole in the lower treble. Often a capacitor is combined with an inductor to form a second order filter, which is more appropriate in controlling tweeter excursion. Then the cross could be made where the woofer is also crossed.
So it was considered that this speaker wanted more rolloff of the woofer and the tweeter. Something that needed more inductors in both cases. A random crossover was found and tried and accepted.
The addition of damping material inside the box is worthwhile. Here higher frequencies that reflect back through the cone can be troublesome.
The woofer may have an undesirable top end (rough through the lower treble). They usually reach a point where the cone is unable to remain as a piston, and bends. It is better to cut this region out, however it is often taken advantage of in cheaper speakers, by filling a hole left by the tweeter which I'll explain next.
Crossing the tweeter high with a single capacitor is a way to ensure that it can handle a little power, without having to fork out for an inductor. It may leave a hole in the lower treble. Often a capacitor is combined with an inductor to form a second order filter, which is more appropriate in controlling tweeter excursion. Then the cross could be made where the woofer is also crossed.
So it was considered that this speaker wanted more rolloff of the woofer and the tweeter. Something that needed more inductors in both cases. A random crossover was found and tried and accepted.
Statements like this typically mean there is too much treble. One of the more popular tweaks is to set the tweeter level by experimenting with resistor values.
1/(2*pi*16000*0.0000012) gives you the reactance of the capacitor at that frequency. The cutoff works around the frequency where this equals the impedance of the tweeter.
That's fascinating.
Beings, there's a couple suggestions (plainly obvious by now) made, that Mark42 implies his (new & satisfactory) crossover "was based upon an educated guess."
Allen, I can see you're speaking contrary, "in reality it was 'pretty much dumb luck'." -- although (thinking out loud) "maybe - big maybe - not much could be done (by introducing fairly random) 2nd order that'd make it ANY WORSE?"
I'm OK w/ some discrepancy, call it "cognitive dissonance" on my part.
So Mark42 purely got lucky. That's strange. Unless "hard to do worse" (slightly crazy idea?) with random crossover?
IOW maybe he made some choices that aren't mathematically verifiable, but are maybe "50/50 suppositions?"
Last, is clear "low frequencies needed filtered from HF driver, and highs from LF driver."
RLC circuits.
There was a time, after massive amounts of Calculus, mostly the MECHANICS of calculus; or rather, too much calculus calculations and not enough diff. eg.'s, whatever, I'd "started to understand the mass-on-spring" damped, driven oscillator analogy to RLC ... Starting to see "maybe one can only go so far with analogies ..." [not to mention there's DIFFERENT analogies, and the better "ones" introduced in texts in 1940's-50 (perhaps) ...] ... bla bla
Anyhow, Allen I can see you're suggesting that "Some, advanced hobbyists, START with a network, and like to think, from experience, and theory, resistance is simplest/cheapest parameter to tweak."
I'd probably have to read a book or two (or very long detailed articles, plural) -- even then probably have to mess around with solder and oscilloscope and RLC low pass filters, I guess, before ...
Anyhow, So by now, Aha! (Lol!) I (finally Lol!) can SEE why "Simple recapping, so-called, an older speaker, and PRESUMING an extant crossover is intrinsically well-engineered, is about only way the novice would ever go, without kidding himself about expecting something else." Even on a 2-way, perhaps ... Tho, this Sony 2-way was SO crudely designed, Mark42 saw, that placing in an entirely new network "seemed like a pretty good gamble," and yeah, luckily it paid off in spades.
Trial-and-error worked, in Mark42's case, "but don't count on it," apparently.
Apparently, there's really no way (realistically, untold calculations, untold testing, untold guesstimates?) to know, in advance, which of these
Dayton Audio XO2W-2.5K 2-Way Speaker Crossover 2,500 Hz
Dayton Audio XO2W-4.5K 2-Way Speaker Crossover 4,500 Hz
Parts Express Speaker Crossover 2-Way 8 Ohm 5,000 Hz
actually WOULD (or even MIGHT) be "best."
That, also, is a (slightly) curious fact, unless ANY of those THREE "likely represents an improvement over ..." That's not a well posed question, perhaps.
I'm thinking that, I'm going to TRY "one of those THREE," or something similar, this summer.
But BEFORE I do that, I've gotta -- at least think about -- understanding some BASIC MECHANICAL CONSTRUCTION of (somewhat typical or as-typical-as-possible) crossovers in "some sort of common 2-way speakers" whether 2nd order or Butterworth or WHATEVER Lol! I'm not being facetious, just light-hearted.
Last, this is interesting;
"Paul quickly found the following Amazon Review, in 30 seconds, whatever," w/r/t Dayton Audio XO2W-4.5K 2-Way Speaker Crossover 4,500 Hz:
January 21, 2016
Verified Purchase
Works great. Improved the sound of a speaker that only had a tweeter capacitor.
Yet, that's the "situation" Mark42 found initially opening up the Sony cabinet.
CAN THIS BE PURELY COINCIDENTAL? I suppose it could, but two guys "employed a strategy, no matter how vague" [speaker that only had a tweeter capacitor] and (luckily) worked for both.
So there's SOME method, maybe, to this madness? Lol! ... (for $24.80 + $6.95 shipping, gamble) and a little reading and maybe some experimental soldering, solder removal, and re-soldering. It'd take [Paul] some hours, maybe over course of a few weekends ...
IOW, obviously there's either a pattern emerges -- either purely coincidental Amazon reviewer A) and Amazon reviewer B) both happened to have "Improved the sound of a speaker that only had a tweeter capacitor" -- with fairly random crossovers -- or there isn't any pattern -- WORTHWHILE. If it worked for Paul, then he'd be the third (to report it) ... Of course, there's ZERO "reportage" of "failures thus far" Lol! If Paul modifies his Sony, it might sound like crap. I'm willing to gamble $30.
Some folks (apparently) use a soldering braid in order to de-solder. Is that recommended?
It's best (to me it seems) to ask a blunt question and maybe succinctly encapsulate this very lengthy post this morning:
"Is it at-all-common, in the hobby, for guys to open a (fairly decent) 2-way, see 'speaker that only had a tweeter capacitor,' install a (fairly random) Dayton Audio 2-Way Speaker Crossover, and also install a 'lot better tweeter,' and some insulation, and ACTUALLY GET 'fairly excellent results?' as it sure seems two Amazon guys have reported." That seems a fair question. I won't ask, "why, or why not?" but this is, however, a fairly curious phenomenon, and MAYBE worthwhile "investigating" shall-we-say. Surely these aren't the only two hobbyists that have done such "down-and-dirty upgrades." Surely that can't be the case. I've honestly no idea. There's nothing new under the sun, as-they-say, except film caps (or whatnot) Lol!
Allen -- I can see you'd written this some time ago -- but it seems useful to know.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.