ttps://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/189847-introduction-designing-crossovers-measurement.html
... I can see that's kinda/sorta "what I'm looking to start to understand these days."
I dunno if it matters, but a general Google search "brought me right back to DIYaudio forum" i.e., I just searched "understanding basic crossover home speaker" or something quite similar and introduction-designing-crossovers-measurement.html was one of the top results.
there's a LOT of choices "what to read" and at least some small comfort level "I mighta been reading in roughly the right forum to begin w/" Lol!
... I can see that's kinda/sorta "what I'm looking to start to understand these days."
I dunno if it matters, but a general Google search "brought me right back to DIYaudio forum" i.e., I just searched "understanding basic crossover home speaker" or something quite similar and introduction-designing-crossovers-measurement.html was one of the top results.
there's a LOT of choices "what to read" and at least some small comfort level "I mighta been reading in roughly the right forum to begin w/" Lol!
I start with a goal, followed by acoustic design. The network comes later. That said, altering the tweeter level using resistors is one of the more popular tweaks when approaching a new, complete speaker.
I don't think I meant to say as much as this, so I'll try to clarify. It was a good choice because it was a more complete variety of crossover and it was from a somewhat similar speaker.
It may be less than ideal because the drivers are different, the cabinet is different, the woofers are different sizes, the tweeter level is different, the tweeter resonance is different, and the tweeter uses a small waveguide.
I used to use one to measure speakers but now it can be done with a computer.
Solder is good, but during a testing phase you can make life easier with clip leads.
Crossover soldering is not that fussy by comparison. Exceptions would be soldering onto tweeter terminals and plastic in capacitors.
Exactly.
It isn't like there aren't some poorly made capacitors out there, but replacements will sometimes have a lower parasitic equivalent series resistance, and will effect a slight increase in treble level because of that. Sometimes that can give the illusion of more detail to the sound. I pay attention to whether these resistance measurements have been done and shown along with the subjective comments.
Absolutely.
'Excellent' is a somewhat subjective term that I'm not certain I found between the lines. But I do think this type of experimentation is to be encouraged.
ttps://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/189847-introduction-designing-crossovers-measurement.html ... shows right away you've "tremendous knowledge and foresight" w/ design, and is immediately apparent why upgrading (existing, consumer speakers) for you, Allen, might come across way-more-complicated than could ever be "related" and/or "evaluated" in 25-words-or-less.
I understand completely, that 'Excellent' or "Excellence" is a (cost!) ri$k/reward proposition.
That's ONE reason I'm trying to confine things (this week, whatever) to 2-way speakers, beings given the given(s) ... I think (an article of faith) Mark42 DID in fact, achieve (relatively!) excellent results, but in large part because, perhaps, maybe, possibly, on account (no pun$) he opted to incorporate a (new) salvage crossover at $4.95ea.
That choice, right there, for $4.95ea = $10 bucks total -- that "savings" over Dayton Dayton Audio XO2W-4.5K 2-Way = $40 bucks total -- would "sure drive" whether "this type of experimentation is to be encouraged." Seems like a natural/logical inference.
So then, that's obviously the crucible, that's probably why his "Fun Speaker Project" Fun speaker project. - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews truncated when/how it did. IOW beings "nobody was suggesting" an (analogous) -- reads cheap -- and good -- "highly affordable" crossover. And very possibly a (high quality) salvage crossover.
In relative terms, it was an old thread, and (maybe) due evolution, "INFINITY REFERENCE 2000.5 2 two way passive crossovers that cross at about 5khz (based on the values of caps on the board)" are obsolete. So that requires ... well, it requires two things:
1) Ability to fairly quickly search Ebay for (roughly) analogous crossover [assuming there's dozens, or hundreds, or thousands, or more?] --
3-minutes or whatever? -- and hopefully coming in minutes -- "two or three decent options" would fairly quickly "jump out," at around $10-20 per PAIR; surely no more than $20 total ... Maybe $15 oughtta be the max? Doesn't matter too much. ... "1/2 price" as-they-say is reasonable target goal. ... I can "afford it," perhaps, but why throw money? ...
"Again assuming" advanced hobbyist could do that (Ebay search); it'd still be presumptuous (on MY part) he'd help ME do that, but spse., isn't outside the realm of possibility. This is one of the more gracious discussion boards I've encountered. Fact is, I'm ... well "scared" is the word, to start a thread "Please Help Me Find A Fairly Accommodating 2-way SALVAGE Crossover..."
Gosh this is a little awkward ... anyhows I'm gonna open up these Sony's next weekend and if I HAD a "better crossover" within reach ...
2) In the end, and this might be afterthought, or rather, it might enable ME to search Ebay -- if I knew "how?" he determined, specifically, INFINITY crossovers [that] cross at about 5khz (based on the values of caps on the board). He obviously did some sort of calculation. It's not that important; or maybe it is? Again, there's no absolute certainty I'd ever completely learn those type calculations, but it "does jump out" that he's calculated. I could JUST AS WELL "learn that later" ... I'm VERY RELUCTANT to "wish or even ask" somebody do my thinking for me, but this is one-of-those-times where I'm flying pretty-darn-blind but "making headway." It's going GREAT so far.
When folks search for Ebay crossovers, salvaged crossovers, 2-way, bookshelf-type speakers, I'm imagining there's a fairly specific set of Ebay search parameters, (which I'd might like to learn, at some point) and even then, I'm guessing, there's some perusing to do.
Maybe a lot of perusing, which'd make things awkward (for me, maybe for anybody).
Daytons are kinda pricey for experimentation.
I saw 2-way crossovers at Amazon in the $10-15 range.
Prolly numerous places folks shop for this type thing.
No compelling reason to mimic Mark42 doggedly, if there's crossovers "ballpark similar to" INFINITY REFERENCE 2000.5 2 two way passive crossovers, of a salvage variety. He said he was surprised to spot 'em. So maybe it's not so easy to find something like that.
We all try and avoid fishing trips, and especially avoid even the appearance of suggesting one for others Lol!
I spse it wouldn't be totally obscene - to think about - starting a thread with "Hey, I've got these 2-way Sony speakers, w/ woofer X, with specs Y, and tweeter U, with specs V, and thinking of replacing the crude 1st order XO with a 2-way, something off-the-shelf, or maybe even a salvage [maybe 10 or 20-dollar pair] -- any ideas?" Succinctly stated, it'd be "any ideas on 'experimental' XO?" -type thread ... But that'd be somewhat similar (and maybe less effective) simply resurrecting the "Fun speaker project" thread (which I'd considered Lol!) IOW resurrecting might be "quicker, easier, better," (not to mention perhaps generically beneficial ... there were some comments there to the effect, "how come nobody's commenting on this?")
anything akin asking somebody to peruse Ebay on my behalf is awkward. That's a lot to ask of hobbyists. Or I'm ASKING "maybe that's asking others to do my research." IOW, Tricky issue: the "Fun speaker project" kinda fizzled out ... got me intrigued, then left the "crucial issue of finding the [preferably cheap] XO out-to-dry, hangin'in the breeze ..."
Maybe a lot of perusing, which'd make things awkward (for me, maybe for anybody).
Daytons are kinda pricey for experimentation.
I saw 2-way crossovers at Amazon in the $10-15 range.
Prolly numerous places folks shop for this type thing.
No compelling reason to mimic Mark42 doggedly, if there's crossovers "ballpark similar to" INFINITY REFERENCE 2000.5 2 two way passive crossovers, of a salvage variety. He said he was surprised to spot 'em. So maybe it's not so easy to find something like that.
We all try and avoid fishing trips, and especially avoid even the appearance of suggesting one for others Lol!
I spse it wouldn't be totally obscene - to think about - starting a thread with "Hey, I've got these 2-way Sony speakers, w/ woofer X, with specs Y, and tweeter U, with specs V, and thinking of replacing the crude 1st order XO with a 2-way, something off-the-shelf, or maybe even a salvage [maybe 10 or 20-dollar pair] -- any ideas?" Succinctly stated, it'd be "any ideas on 'experimental' XO?" -type thread ... But that'd be somewhat similar (and maybe less effective) simply resurrecting the "Fun speaker project" thread (which I'd considered Lol!) IOW resurrecting might be "quicker, easier, better," (not to mention perhaps generically beneficial ... there were some comments there to the effect, "how come nobody's commenting on this?")
anything akin asking somebody to peruse Ebay on my behalf is awkward. That's a lot to ask of hobbyists. Or I'm ASKING "maybe that's asking others to do my research." IOW, Tricky issue: the "Fun speaker project" kinda fizzled out ... got me intrigued, then left the "crucial issue of finding the [preferably cheap] XO out-to-dry, hangin'in the breeze ..."
I gave some suggestions in post #22 why the replacement crossover might mismatch. In other words, these are some clues what to look out for. If you see a speaker mentioned, it is easy to find pictures of it. It is possible to find crossover frequency information in reviews.
When you find something suitable, expect to have to adjust the tweeter level. If I were doing this, I'd probably get a few different ones and mix the components on listening tests.
I'd like to find some suggestions for you, but this is mostly guesswork at this point. Don't be discouraged, you may find a gem.
...but, if you ask a question like: achieving bass and treble balance, or not enough midrange presence.. you show that you are working on a specific problem and are stuck and need help.
When you find something suitable, expect to have to adjust the tweeter level. If I were doing this, I'd probably get a few different ones and mix the components on listening tests.
I'd like to find some suggestions for you, but this is mostly guesswork at this point. Don't be discouraged, you may find a gem.
Copper sold as new is, these days.
Be careful how much you read into this. Besides, if a person was to rip a crossover and put it up for sale, they'd sooner do this from a higher quality speaker, for whatever reason.
It's a little hard to explain that there isn't much to say on the subject. If you want to find crossovers and hope for a good result, then best of luck to you. If you want to tweak them, then you need to learn how to tweak...
...but, if you ask a question like: achieving bass and treble balance, or not enough midrange presence.. you show that you are working on a specific problem and are stuck and need help.
Maybe you could start your own thread about finding ebay crossovers that suit a cheap available speaker. Your pet project that others may contribute to?
Obviously, This is all "kinda low priority" beings we COULD just buy the Dayton Audio XO2W-4.5K 2-Way Speaker Crossover 4,500 Hz, $60/pr after shipping, chunk them in our Sony ss-B1000 bookshelf (ridding 1st order extant XO) and (I'm guessing) be delighted with (any) improvement, upgrade the tweeter too, realizing that only requires a rasp, and screwdriver, and some solder, and insulation ... "learning listening reading" the "basics" all-the-while ...
Iterating, if somebody suggested, "Hey Paul, my advice is resurrect the old 'Fun Speaker project' thread," and try and press to see if anybody HAD "any sound advice on possible substitute for Mark42's ($4.95ea) INFINITY REFERENCE 2000.5 2 two way passive [salvage] crossovers -- besides a $25 variety Dayton?" then that'd be a pretty darn easy suggestion to follow up on. Just not sure about (me, personally, given my overall electronics naivete) bumping an old thread like that, is all. It seemed a simple (at face value) idea, relatively speaking. Others (novices) "were thinking what I'm saying," roughly, on that project, but (perhaps in dignity) didn't press it.
Today I tried to Google if there's any "local electronics hobby hobbyist society or club?"
Apparently, culture is changing so fast even definition(s) of hobbyist has become blurry. That's the impression I got, without spending too much research. I'm in Kansas City. USA, ... DIYaudio seems, perhaps, to be roughly based out of United States of America?
One could only imagine, "some benefits or advantages" of one (aspiring Lol!) hobbyist working one-on-one (obviously locally!) w/ another hobbyist. It's a kinda/sorta weird question, but very recently, locally, I've interacted (well a few years back I spse) w/ the local Tropical Fish society. Yes, of course they had TONS of "website type" interaction, meaning simply they'd established a forum quite similar DIYaudio, and the national forums (Cichlid fishes e.g. or Saltwater) are abundant and thriving. But there's ALWAYS a "local aspect" to tropical fish keeping/breeding, competitions, shows, meetings &tc. BOTH "physical presence" AND "electronic interaction" OR "on your own" are always mingling and jiving together. Ichthyologists (pro) and Biologists (semi or pro) SOMETIMES interacted ... they wrote all the books we (Tropical fish) hobbyists bought, so "why not -- mostly 99% National meetings -- have authors speak?"
I don't think there's an electronics club in Kansas City. But when totally new to a hobby, that's one thing you think of; an actual, physical, local club. No biggie.
Iterating, if somebody suggested, "Hey Paul, my advice is resurrect the old 'Fun Speaker project' thread," and try and press to see if anybody HAD "any sound advice on possible substitute for Mark42's ($4.95ea) INFINITY REFERENCE 2000.5 2 two way passive [salvage] crossovers -- besides a $25 variety Dayton?" then that'd be a pretty darn easy suggestion to follow up on. Just not sure about (me, personally, given my overall electronics naivete) bumping an old thread like that, is all. It seemed a simple (at face value) idea, relatively speaking. Others (novices) "were thinking what I'm saying," roughly, on that project, but (perhaps in dignity) didn't press it.
Today I tried to Google if there's any "local electronics hobby hobbyist society or club?"
Apparently, culture is changing so fast even definition(s) of hobbyist has become blurry. That's the impression I got, without spending too much research. I'm in Kansas City. USA, ... DIYaudio seems, perhaps, to be roughly based out of United States of America?
One could only imagine, "some benefits or advantages" of one (aspiring Lol!) hobbyist working one-on-one (obviously locally!) w/ another hobbyist. It's a kinda/sorta weird question, but very recently, locally, I've interacted (well a few years back I spse) w/ the local Tropical Fish society. Yes, of course they had TONS of "website type" interaction, meaning simply they'd established a forum quite similar DIYaudio, and the national forums (Cichlid fishes e.g. or Saltwater) are abundant and thriving. But there's ALWAYS a "local aspect" to tropical fish keeping/breeding, competitions, shows, meetings &tc. BOTH "physical presence" AND "electronic interaction" OR "on your own" are always mingling and jiving together. Ichthyologists (pro) and Biologists (semi or pro) SOMETIMES interacted ... they wrote all the books we (Tropical fish) hobbyists bought, so "why not -- mostly 99% National meetings -- have authors speak?"
I don't think there's an electronics club in Kansas City. But when totally new to a hobby, that's one thing you think of; an actual, physical, local club. No biggie.
Yes, yet "virtually everybody" (and definitely including Mark42) says, "Oh, I took this cheap speaker, esp a 2-way, found a cheap (extant) XO on it's insides, and replaced it." It's almost freakish there's no reportage to the effect, "I made it sound WORSE."
Allen, you're systematic, and educated to electronics, and critical of any (more or less obvious) deficiencies or flaws. Critical, even, of slight flaws. Meaning, the Q I'm asking isn't really your ball of wax.
Your idea about my starting my pet project thread is most welcome. Life's easier (for all) that way.
Nonetheless, [only slightly facetiously] THIS THREAD CRIES OUT for "posting":
"Please, tell me about the cheap 2-way you replaced the XO network on, and subsequently got BAD results," meaning, very bluntly, the "Unit sounded worse than when you started." Even a "spit" shine? Nobody, not even the dimmest of wits, has EVER (to my extremely limited knowledge Lol!) brought that to "public" attention -- the bad results I mean! ... To me, that's a "phenomenon," and not one like UFO's.
Cripes, I'd report my rotten results BEFORE my "good" ones. There's a lacunae there -- a death of info, "about rotten results," else "Maybe it's HARD to go wrong, w/o some SERIOUS (mechanical) mistake," e.g., wiring something parallel instead of series, some such ...
Nonetheless, your advice is consistently most excellent, and a careful re-read of your: why the replacement crossover might mismatch. In other words, these are some clues what to look out for can't possibly steer me astray.
I know I've been probing, noodling almost ridiculously; good news is I trust your discretion & judgement. I'm 99% convinced, my "verbosity" has reached critical mass, and things go "pretty darn quiet" (w/r/t this thread) but for GOOD things "going quiet" on these particulars. Things relent nicely into quietude. Not a guarantee, but at least pretty strong gut instinct.
One must ride his own horse after adolescence.
I think I'm grabbin' 'er by the reins. Hi Ho Silver, Away!
This is a trippy page:
Crossover Design Chart and Inductance vs. Frequency Calculator(Low-pass)
It appears to enable me to replicate Mark42's calculations at a few key strokes. Maybe. I'm guessing.
I tried 8ohm and 8ohm at 16kz HF, 1st order, and brought back 1.2[42187]uF.
He'd [Mark42] said, "1.2uF 1st order cap across the 8ohm tweeter effectively crossed the tweeter 16khz."
Probably I should have said, Mark42 would've presumed (absent in Sony bookshelf) inductor (nearly nil value) might've been provided by the woofer coil itself? It shows as 0.07[9617]mH -- nearly nil -- in this instance.
I'll have to review, but Allen may have shown same calculation. Checking now.
Now for fun I try (actual, real world?) 7.6ohm tweeter ... (8ohm is nominal or "rated"? ... Newbie tweaks first disparity between "rated" and "actual" he's seen) and 1.307uF comes back.
Gosh, does the Crossover Design Chart and Inductance vs. Frequency Calculator(Low-pass) "calculator" really work? By that, I mean "provide some crude, or rough, or ideal parameters?" It must do sumpin' long those lines?
Crossover Design Chart and Inductance vs. Frequency Calculator(Low-pass)
It appears to enable me to replicate Mark42's calculations at a few key strokes. Maybe. I'm guessing.
I tried 8ohm and 8ohm at 16kz HF, 1st order, and brought back 1.2[42187]uF.
He'd [Mark42] said, "1.2uF 1st order cap across the 8ohm tweeter effectively crossed the tweeter 16khz."
Probably I should have said, Mark42 would've presumed (absent in Sony bookshelf) inductor (nearly nil value) might've been provided by the woofer coil itself? It shows as 0.07[9617]mH -- nearly nil -- in this instance.
I'll have to review, but Allen may have shown same calculation. Checking now.
Now for fun I try (actual, real world?) 7.6ohm tweeter ... (8ohm is nominal or "rated"? ... Newbie tweaks first disparity between "rated" and "actual" he's seen) and 1.307uF comes back.
Gosh, does the Crossover Design Chart and Inductance vs. Frequency Calculator(Low-pass) "calculator" really work? By that, I mean "provide some crude, or rough, or ideal parameters?" It must do sumpin' long those lines?
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Yet, I'm not sure it'll get me completely there.
... returns a figure aprox = 8.3.
Oh, it's a EQUATION, and aprox 8. is the ohm value?
use 3.1416 for Pi and do again.
1/(2*pi*16000*0.0000012) = 8.3.
Lemme do in head.
12x16 move decimals and factor in 2 pi. then invert.
about 8.4 (I cheated ... haven't done gross calculations in years.)
Don't folks use this spreadsheet?:
Crossover Design Chart and Inductance vs. Frequency Calculator(Low-pass)
A spreadsheet like this will give you the same results (I assume) as a Dayton crossover. These will be accurate results, within the confines discussed above. We tend to refer to that as text-book behaviour.
I often reverse engineer like this to answer questions, and I figure approximately the margin of error to keep in mind as I respond.
I often reverse engineer like this to answer questions, and I figure approximately the margin of error to keep in mind as I respond.
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It's interesting, did search, earlier, INTERNAL DIYaudio; must learn the SE nuances ...
Home Page - Maker Faire Kansas City
came back,
Sat & Sun June 22-23, 2019
Maker Faire is a gathering of fascinating, curious people who enjoy learning and who love sharing what they can do. From engineers to artists to scientists to crafters, Maker Faire is a venue for these "makers" to show hobbies, experiments, projects.
We call it the Greatest Show (& Tell) on Earth - a family-friendly showcase of invention, creativity, and resourcefulness. Glimpse the future and get inspired!
It actually sounds like good times.
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