My Katana DAC stack, (with Isolator 1.2) and the SQ board is breaking is nicely. I have it hooked up to powered speakers that I use with my HDTV. Music has been playing since Saturday evening . I do power down the unit down for 30-45 minutes to allow to caps to change down and form , giving them proper break in. I have done that once, I am do so shortly again. I use Internet radio stations at low volume and when i want to listen, I use my awesome library. Every with the little powered speakers the SQ is very good.
I have a military grade regulated LPS plugged it to the USB-C port of the MC board. I have the Allo psi plugged into the Isolator board's USB-C connector.
I plan on using a total of 4 LPS (3 units), one has a DYI board with dual halves and a dual winding toroidal transformer.
From what I can tell it this time, the Dual output LT3042 LPs will power the MC board and the karma dac. I plan to use the external connector to power the Katana Dac I have another Military +/- 15Volt LPs for the SQ board and hoping to use pin headers on top of the MC board. For the RPI< I am using my 5 Volt 4 amp Military LPS. I know I can use the USB-C on the isolator board yet I believe connected the LPS to the bottom of the RPI with solder is superior.
What do you all think I my plan?
I have a military grade regulated LPS plugged it to the USB-C port of the MC board. I have the Allo psi plugged into the Isolator board's USB-C connector.
I plan on using a total of 4 LPS (3 units), one has a DYI board with dual halves and a dual winding toroidal transformer.
From what I can tell it this time, the Dual output LT3042 LPs will power the MC board and the karma dac. I plan to use the external connector to power the Katana Dac I have another Military +/- 15Volt LPs for the SQ board and hoping to use pin headers on top of the MC board. For the RPI< I am using my 5 Volt 4 amp Military LPS. I know I can use the USB-C on the isolator board yet I believe connected the LPS to the bottom of the RPI with solder is superior.
What do you all think I my plan?
Military power supplies are not necessarily better for home use than normal good quality supplies. Of course, if you plan to operate the supplies at extremes of temperature (think outdoors in Antarctica, or Gobi Desert) and or under extremes of vibration then there may be some good benefit to using military grade. There is no basic reason to think they will sound better. They are probably unspecified in that regard.
Film caps, 100uf total, or thereabouts are likely to be helpful on the +-15v rails, regardless if using LDO or LM317. It is also probably good to use a mix of values and use a good brand like Wima. The following combination has been shown to work: 10+10+22+33+33 (all values in uf per rail, all caps rated for 63v).
Film caps, 100uf total, or thereabouts are likely to be helpful on the +-15v rails, regardless if using LDO or LM317. It is also probably good to use a mix of values and use a good brand like Wima. The following combination has been shown to work: 10+10+22+33+33 (all values in uf per rail, all caps rated for 63v).
The Military PSU's are use are so good at improving the SQ. They have so little ripple, highly regulated and linear. The 5 Volt 4 amp one was powering my Allo Boss 1.2 dac and the improvement was huge. Now it is lowering several parts connected to the MC boards USB-C port. When I am ready to optimize the 4 LPS, I will use it to power the RPI. The +/- 15 volt one wil power the SQ board.
Have you compared them to film caps? If not, how would you know if they are as good for sound quality? Just wondering how that might be figured out.
Hi Mark, what type of film caps are you recommending. Metal film? Others? I am just not familiar enough to know which type you are talking about.
Cheers.
Hi Bryce,
So far, the best, and I would say very excellent results obtained with Katana sound quality were using the setup in the picture below. In the front left the red block is some Wima stacked film caps soldered together. There is a total of 108uf on each of the +-15v rails. The exact values soldered together on each rail are: 10+10+22+33+33 (all numbers are in uf).
The linear power supply is supplying +-15v for Katana 'thd' output stage, and the 5v linear supply in the same box is powering Katana MCU board and the rest of the stack down to the Allo 1.2 isolator board. The bottom of the isolator and RPi is powered by an IFI 5v supply.
With this power configuration, I would estimate that Katana competes well with dacs costing up to $1,500 or so. Starting at about $1,800 to $2,200 there are definitely audibly superior dacs.
Also, I am doing a little bit of testing for Allo to see if the film caps can help the +-15v inverter on the MCU board. My inital impression is that they do help, but with 108uf per rail, some of the graininess of the inverter remains audible. Therefore, at this point best sound quality is still with a linear supply and film caps. At least, that's how it looks from here.
In addition, I did some more checking for some other people to see if there might be a lower cost film cap solution than what I am using now. Other configurations haven't been tested yet, but from reading data sheets and testing done so far, a mix of film caps sizes seems like it should probably be the best way to go. (One could use lots of 10uf caps in parallel instead, but it gets too bulky and expensive that way.)
EDIT: By the way, the linear supply has been modded a little. The +15v regulator is now LT1086, and all the rectifier diodes are hexfreds (soft recovery types, which are good to prevent HF transformer commutation ringing noise that can sneak past regulators and adversely affect sound quality)
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LizardKing01,
A couple of points, I'll try and number them.
1.) Exactly what "military grade" power supplies do you speaking of - what make and model?
I think Markw4 has a point..."military grade" in industry generally means high reliability, often in adverse or at least a wide range of conditions. I've known many Audiophiles to take "military grade" to mean "high quality," or as you seem to be implying in this case "little ripple, highly regulated and linear."
"Military grade" and "high quality," well, they really just different in my experience, at least for audio, and one doesn't necessarily follow the other.
Once we have the make and model, maybe we can locate some specifications. Or, do you know the specifications for the supplies that you have? Or, have you measured?
Many of the supplies that have been mentioned or pointed out in this thread are state of the art or the latest manufacturer offerings in terms of low noise. Others are specific implementations from industry professionals that go to addressing the issue of low noise, etc. in audio.
I'm curious to compare specifications, to assess whether your supplies might be worth of a comparison on my or someone else's part. I have to admit, I'm a bit dubious.
2.) If you're going to put this forth, and I'm glad that you did, I think it is important for us to know the forgoing as the thread is about "getting the best out of the Katana DAC," and further, you have extrapolated from the Boss to the Katana. I don't know that that one necessarily follows the other in my experience.
So, some facts.
What you have selected still might be better, but the purpose of this thread is to try and help narrow down what is a "pretty wide playing field," and just guessing or throwing around supplies based on what was better in some other instance may not always translate.
Have you tried any of the supplies and/or regulators that have been mentioned or suggested in this thread for the Katana as a means of comparison with your "military grade" supplies?
A couple of points, I'll try and number them.
1.) Exactly what "military grade" power supplies do you speaking of - what make and model?
I think Markw4 has a point..."military grade" in industry generally means high reliability, often in adverse or at least a wide range of conditions. I've known many Audiophiles to take "military grade" to mean "high quality," or as you seem to be implying in this case "little ripple, highly regulated and linear."
"Military grade" and "high quality," well, they really just different in my experience, at least for audio, and one doesn't necessarily follow the other.
Once we have the make and model, maybe we can locate some specifications. Or, do you know the specifications for the supplies that you have? Or, have you measured?
Many of the supplies that have been mentioned or pointed out in this thread are state of the art or the latest manufacturer offerings in terms of low noise. Others are specific implementations from industry professionals that go to addressing the issue of low noise, etc. in audio.
I'm curious to compare specifications, to assess whether your supplies might be worth of a comparison on my or someone else's part. I have to admit, I'm a bit dubious.
2.) If you're going to put this forth, and I'm glad that you did, I think it is important for us to know the forgoing as the thread is about "getting the best out of the Katana DAC," and further, you have extrapolated from the Boss to the Katana. I don't know that that one necessarily follows the other in my experience.
So, some facts.
What you have selected still might be better, but the purpose of this thread is to try and help narrow down what is a "pretty wide playing field," and just guessing or throwing around supplies based on what was better in some other instance may not always translate.
Have you tried any of the supplies and/or regulators that have been mentioned or suggested in this thread for the Katana as a means of comparison with your "military grade" supplies?
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Yes, they are Wima MKS Series 4. Don't know about using other film caps. The data sheets for film caps don't necessarily show what we directly want to know, but they do tend to show maximum current ratings according to frequency. They may also show dissipation factor by frequency. Some film caps are not rated in the above respects for even as much as 10kHz. The smaller uf Wima caps I used are rated for current up to 100kHz, but the larger 33uf seem to be in the range that go off the bottom of the graph somewhere between 50kHz and 100kHz. Although those are above audio frequencies, they are not above some of the HF noise coming out of the dac that we are trying to filter out in the output stage. I wouldn't be surprised to find out the combination of caps that I happened to try turns out to be about optimal.
After the first experiments with caps I described above, I got some 33uf Wima caps of the same type and soldered 5 in parallel to make a total of 165uf per rail. My initial impression is that they might not sound quite as good as the first stacks totaling 108uf each. My guess at this point is that it could be because of some diminished HF effectiveness in the bigger value caps.
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Hmmh.
Nobody is actually discussing Katana (1.2) as-is. (lets leave the quality issues aside for the time being)
Certain people over here seem to suggest that Katana just works well by adding their own great tweaks.
I wouldn't be surprised if that scares off more people then it hooks up people to Katana - considering it's base price.
I hope that Allo/cdsgames realizes this.
Luckily (from an Allo perspective) not everybody out there is reading all this.
All the best for 2019 Allo. I mean it.
Enjoy.
Nobody is actually discussing Katana (1.2) as-is. (lets leave the quality issues aside for the time being)
Certain people over here seem to suggest that Katana just works well by adding their own great tweaks.
I wouldn't be surprised if that scares off more people then it hooks up people to Katana - considering it's base price.
I hope that Allo/cdsgames realizes this.
Luckily (from an Allo perspective) not everybody out there is reading all this.
All the best for 2019 Allo. I mean it.
Enjoy.
I find the power supply options to be a bit more than I anticipated. I don’t have many options from my parts on-hand and trying to find ready made options with published specifications is also a challenge. Allo’s delayed power supplies doesn’t make things any easier. If there was something available from them when I ordered my Katana I probably would have just gone with that. Now I will start with something very basic and work up from there. This is DIY after all.
Extra power supplies are only for people wanting the very best possible sound quality. It doesn't matter all that much to some people. Also, it is something that can be done later, and the dac can be enjoyed in the meantime with a couple of wall wart supplies. In addition, to fully appreciate the best possible sound quality may really require better power amps and speakers than many people have. Unless amp distortion and noise is really, really low, it will probably dominate sound quality. That's why I usually suggest to people over in the dac modding thread to also mod a low cost ebay LME49860 headphone amp. They can be very low distortion and allow one to really hear what the dac sounds like in all its goodness. No need to use tubes and transformers anymore to cover up (mask) the shortcomings of bad dacs, thankfully.
@Soundcheck, since the Katana IS a bare set of boards that needs power supplies, discussing it as-is means we cannot discuss the SQ, as it will produce none.
@BryceJ, of course a couple of the basic 5v 3A SMPS adapter from Allo is a good starting points. Also, the one preferred by my 'audio friend' from the 'Getting the Best...' thread is available from Microcenter in the US... search for QVS 2.5A 5.1V. Both are listed at $11USD each, though you may need to buy/make adapters depending on how you power the stack.
For $100, you can get 2 iFi iPowers.
As @Markw4 says, these will get you going and you can enjoy the DAC quickly and not too expensively.
As far as DIY options, for 1 to 3 5V supplies, the easiest and fairly cost-effective DIY options (requiring through-hole component assembly and minor testing) are either the Centaur (good) or Placid HD (better) kits from Twisted Pear or the 5V/12W Low Voltage Power Supplies (about midway between the Twisted Pear kits in SQ) from K&K Audio. You'll want to use the appropriate Twisted Pear transformer for their kits... one transformer can power up to 2 board. The K&K kit comes with a transformer.
For the +-15V supplies you can use either the LCBPS (good) or Placid HD Bipolar (better) from Twisted Pear Audio along with their matching transformer.
I list a number of other sources and options in the 1st post of the 'Getting the best...' thread, but they are either not as simple to source OR may be more expensive OR require more DIY design and planning to implement.
Of course, there is the upcoming Allo supply. A quick and easy route is to get it going is to go with a couple of the inexpensive SMPS adapters and later either get the Allo supply or DIY the above options.
I hope this helps!
Greg in Mississippi
P.S. @cdsgames, can you provide more info on the Allo supply... what outputs it will have and if possible, a projected cost target?n THANKS!
@BryceJ, of course a couple of the basic 5v 3A SMPS adapter from Allo is a good starting points. Also, the one preferred by my 'audio friend' from the 'Getting the Best...' thread is available from Microcenter in the US... search for QVS 2.5A 5.1V. Both are listed at $11USD each, though you may need to buy/make adapters depending on how you power the stack.
For $100, you can get 2 iFi iPowers.
As @Markw4 says, these will get you going and you can enjoy the DAC quickly and not too expensively.
As far as DIY options, for 1 to 3 5V supplies, the easiest and fairly cost-effective DIY options (requiring through-hole component assembly and minor testing) are either the Centaur (good) or Placid HD (better) kits from Twisted Pear or the 5V/12W Low Voltage Power Supplies (about midway between the Twisted Pear kits in SQ) from K&K Audio. You'll want to use the appropriate Twisted Pear transformer for their kits... one transformer can power up to 2 board. The K&K kit comes with a transformer.
For the +-15V supplies you can use either the LCBPS (good) or Placid HD Bipolar (better) from Twisted Pear Audio along with their matching transformer.
I list a number of other sources and options in the 1st post of the 'Getting the best...' thread, but they are either not as simple to source OR may be more expensive OR require more DIY design and planning to implement.
Of course, there is the upcoming Allo supply. A quick and easy route is to get it going is to go with a couple of the inexpensive SMPS adapters and later either get the Allo supply or DIY the above options.
I hope this helps!
Greg in Mississippi
P.S. @cdsgames, can you provide more info on the Allo supply... what outputs it will have and if possible, a projected cost target?n THANKS!
@ed linssen, this is EXACTLY the right place to ask about current draw of a combined Piano 2.1 and Kali stack as this is the general Allo.com products thread, even though most of the latest posts reference their new Katana.
I don't know the current draw of those boards for sure. BUT having run both before, I believe the current draw of each is 100mA or somewhat less. A supply that will source 300mA will certainly handle both.
Curious what Allo will say.
Greg in Mississippi
I don't know the current draw of those boards for sure. BUT having run both before, I believe the current draw of each is 100mA or somewhat less. A supply that will source 300mA will certainly handle both.
Curious what Allo will say.
Greg in Mississippi
Finally we're getting there.
A 2-in-one solution. Nice.
Will it be SMPS or Linear?
However!
3+1 A ???
What's the "1" for?
Too low for a RPI 3B+ (according to spec) and too low for Katana !??!
It would then require two of these for a Katana stack.
Or you power the DAC/isolator and the controller/output stage each with one of these two outputs
and use another SMPS for the PI e.g. your $11 SMPS.
Is that the way you're thinking?
Looking forward to it.
A 2-in-one solution. Nice.
Will it be SMPS or Linear?
However!
3+1 A ???
What's the "1" for?
Too low for a RPI 3B+ (according to spec) and too low for Katana !??!
It would then require two of these for a Katana stack.
Or you power the DAC/isolator and the controller/output stage each with one of these two outputs
and use another SMPS for the PI e.g. your $11 SMPS.
Is that the way you're thinking?
Looking forward to it.
Hmmh.
Nobody is actually discussing Katana (1.2) as-is. (lets leave the quality issues aside for the time being)
Certain people over here seem to suggest that Katana just works well by adding their own great tweaks.
I wouldn't be surprised if that scares off more people then it hooks up people to Katana - considering it's base price.
I hope that Allo/cdsgames realizes this.
Luckily (from an Allo perspective) not everybody out there is reading all this.
All the best for 2019 Allo. I mean it.
Enjoy.
We do understand. Still we think Katana is the best DAC for RPI as this point and with proper supply its beats a lot of commercial DACs.
We are hard at work on the new projects , expect some type of announcements in the comming weeks. LPS , Audiophile RPI , Nirvana .
current draw Piano2.1+Kali
Thank you, Greg and CDS!
I was in the very small hours and my meter broke down! Should not have bothered you.
Now that I am fresh again, checked it, and it indeed appears to be around 170mA. Can move on again. Needed it for calculating R1 for the Salas U BIB1.3 which is on its way to me.
Thank you, Greg and CDS!
I was in the very small hours and my meter broke down! Should not have bothered you.
Now that I am fresh again, checked it, and it indeed appears to be around 170mA. Can move on again. Needed it for calculating R1 for the Salas U BIB1.3 which is on its way to me.
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