Can Nichicon MUSE ES series bipolar electrolytic caps be used in speaker crossovers?
Please don't tell me about film caps being better...I know that. I am not a complete idiot, lol. And that is not the question being asked here 🙂
I just would like to know whether this series of Nichicon bipolar caps that, in my mind at least, is usually associated with amplifier circuits, is intended by the manufacturer to also be used in speaker crossovers?
Thank you!
Please don't tell me about film caps being better...I know that. I am not a complete idiot, lol. And that is not the question being asked here 🙂
I just would like to know whether this series of Nichicon bipolar caps that, in my mind at least, is usually associated with amplifier circuits, is intended by the manufacturer to also be used in speaker crossovers?
Thank you!
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Simple answer is yes, they are fine.
Ask yourself how a capacitor 'knows' what kind of signal it is handling. How does it 'know' it is passing an audio current and not for example a servo correction current. The answer is that it doesn't.
Ask yourself how a capacitor 'knows' what kind of signal it is handling. How does it 'know' it is passing an audio current and not for example a servo correction current. The answer is that it doesn't.
Thanks Mooly 
Yes I was thinking that same thing. I understand the logic. Just that I was afraid maybe I missed something. I am trying to help out someone on another site. Just wanted to be certain that I was not giving bad advice.
Yes I was thinking that same thing. I understand the logic. Just that I was afraid maybe I missed something. I am trying to help out someone on another site. Just wanted to be certain that I was not giving bad advice.
You can also run two polar caps back to back. It might take less space and save you money.
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Nichicon have DB and GB types for speaker crossovers. They are all 50v where the ES is available at voltages that are to low for speakers. It could be that the current capacity of the ES is also to low.
Bi-polar caps
The GB have significantly better specs.
You can find them here.
http://products.nichicon.co.jp/en/pdf/XJA043/e-db_gb.pdf
Ed
The GB have significantly better specs.
You can find them here.
http://products.nichicon.co.jp/en/pdf/XJA043/e-db_gb.pdf
Ed
The earlier post about current rating is very important.
Look at the ripple current ratings of the cap, and your application. Speaker applications can have quite high current - which is best represented on most capacitor spec sheets as "ripple current" usually at 50/100 / 60/120Hz but sometimes augmented with a higher frequency rating for 1KHz or so.
You need to stay well, well inside this to achieve a reasonable lifespan for the device.
Look at the ripple current ratings of the cap, and your application. Speaker applications can have quite high current - which is best represented on most capacitor spec sheets as "ripple current" usually at 50/100 / 60/120Hz but sometimes augmented with a higher frequency rating for 1KHz or so.
You need to stay well, well inside this to achieve a reasonable lifespan for the device.
Good point about the ripple specs. DB gives values for ripple in the spec sheet, ES does not, at least I can't find it. And the DB are physically much larger. I will investigate further on this point. But I am guessing that the DB are also significantly larger then the original caps. Kinda difficult to know as I don't have my eyes or my hands on this project.
@Mooly, what are your thoughts on this point? Is the ES series' ripple adequate? Is this possibly what differentiates amplifier (low current) from speaker bipolar caps?
@Mooly, what are your thoughts on this point? Is the ES series' ripple adequate? Is this possibly what differentiates amplifier (low current) from speaker bipolar caps?
I would personally not use Es caps in speakers that will be powered by more than a couple of watts amps.
Roger2,
The first 2 replies are potentially dangerous and not safe when high power levels are involved. If the application was a couple of watts only I will let this thread slide but what if it's not?
The someone you are trying to help can end up as a victim of an exploding capacitor and maybe loose his eyesight in the process. Something that you should keep in mind and be made aware of.
Stick with the basics. Apply Ohm's law on the ESR which is inversely proportional to the ripple current rating of an electrolytic capacitor. The higher the ESR, the more heat dissipated when more power is aplied. There is a reason why Nichicon does not mention speaker crossover as one of the MUSE ES application, IT IS NOT RECOMMENDED!!!
If the MUSE ES has excellent ripple rating/ESR, Nichicon will mention it on their datasheet. The fact is they don't.
Common sense and safety first.
The first 2 replies are potentially dangerous and not safe when high power levels are involved. If the application was a couple of watts only I will let this thread slide but what if it's not?
The someone you are trying to help can end up as a victim of an exploding capacitor and maybe loose his eyesight in the process. Something that you should keep in mind and be made aware of.
Stick with the basics. Apply Ohm's law on the ESR which is inversely proportional to the ripple current rating of an electrolytic capacitor. The higher the ESR, the more heat dissipated when more power is aplied. There is a reason why Nichicon does not mention speaker crossover as one of the MUSE ES application, IT IS NOT RECOMMENDED!!!
If the MUSE ES has excellent ripple rating/ESR, Nichicon will mention it on their datasheet. The fact is they don't.
Common sense and safety first.
The Muse ES is intended for small signal applications i.e. coupling, so I am going to say they are not a good choice and in high power applications could be hazardous.
Apologies for not replying earlier... I've been a little scarce around here the last couple of days and perhaps my reply wasn't the most stellar in terms of info offered.
Some valid concerns have been raised over ripple current ratings. Without wanting to become embroiled in the issue 🙂 I would assume that you were originally looking at the 50 volt rated parts (ES). The data sheet shows that the loss factor for the ES range slots in somewhere between the DB and GB ranges. Mention of film caps also suggested the values you were looking at were pretty low.
The range of available higher values for all these seems limited, particularly at the 50 volt rating. With that in mind it might be advisable to know more of the actual configuration of the crossover, and what kind of continuous power is required to be handled. And what is actually in there to begin with.
I would go as far as to say that the difference in loss factor between any of these caps isn't huge.
These capacitors were not designed for cross-over use, and there appropriate components in the Muse line that were. Use those instead.
I know nothing about how the end user intends to use these speakers, what sort of music he listens to, and how loudly, but I have even seen appropriately chosen and rated bi-polars fail in home use in commercially made speaker systems. (I used to work for a large consumer electronics firm).
I know nothing about how the end user intends to use these speakers, what sort of music he listens to, and how loudly, but I have even seen appropriately chosen and rated bi-polars fail in home use in commercially made speaker systems. (I used to work for a large consumer electronics firm).
Here are actual measured ESR values of 10uF/50V bi-polar capacitors available right now from DigiKey including the MUSE ES. I've also included a 1uF/450V Panasonic ECW-F polypropylene film capacitor and a N.O.S. 10uF/25V Nichicon NP HF in the mix.
These are not absolute values and I'm not making any claims of accuracy but one can make relative comparison between products with the data provided. All capacitors were measured under the same test frequency and voltage.
As shown on the table, it is not safe to make assumptions of the high frequency performance of any capacitor especially when the manufacturer provided only 120Hz and 1kHz test data.
One interesting tidbit is that Illinois Capacitor and CDE/Mallory mentions on their datasheets about the suitability of their products for use on speaker crossover. The ESR for both shows that might not be the case.
These are not absolute values and I'm not making any claims of accuracy but one can make relative comparison between products with the data provided. All capacitors were measured under the same test frequency and voltage.
As shown on the table, it is not safe to make assumptions of the high frequency performance of any capacitor especially when the manufacturer provided only 120Hz and 1kHz test data.
One interesting tidbit is that Illinois Capacitor and CDE/Mallory mentions on their datasheets about the suitability of their products for use on speaker crossover. The ESR for both shows that might not be the case.
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Thanks for sharing that.
That helps explain my experience with Illinois’s capacitors and why they have been removed when found.
That helps explain my experience with Illinois’s capacitors and why they have been removed when found.
LOL, guys if I had requested a detailed analysis on this question, none of this would have happened. Just sayin'...this is an observation on forums in general, not just there.
I appreciate all of the concern expressed over safety. I am right there with you, and just because you don't see me posting here much, please don't assume that I am one of those slap-it-together-and-if-it-works-right-now-forget-about-it types that are so abundant in audio forums. That is not me. I do things right.
But...that said, the ONE thing that has not been mentioned is that a many of the caps that are original used in speakers are small, cheap, and likely not even on par with Nichicon ES
Stated another way, I do not believe that Mooly's original advice would have posed any type of danger. Besides, these are mini-speakers and the caps would be sealed up inside. Safety is a good thing. Over thinking things can stifle. I know, I have been there too many times.
Would DB series caps be better. Yeah, they would.
But DB caps are not practical because of their significant size difference vs the original caps. The guy I was trying to help out has NOT responded to that thread since I asked him for lead spacing on his crossover PCB. So I am stuck and TBH, quickly losing motivation to continue to try to assist him. He demonstrates zero technical ability.
IMHO any thing other than exact fit replacements would be above his head. The x-over PCB is very small. He has jammed a couple regular polarized electrolytics in there and even those are an awkward fit (and has thrown away the original caps). No way would DB series fit without some out-of-the-box thinking. If I am ever able to obtain LS for the two cap positions I may post options for him, and the pros and cons for each.
Having no ripple data on anything except the DB creates a dilemma. I am not getting how ESR is a useful indicator of a cap's suitability for speaker x-over use. (caps in question are 4.7uF and 33uF BTW, clearly one is in series with the tweeter, and I would assume the other is parallel to the woofer)
I didn't want to have to write a long post like this. And no doubt this post will trigger much more discussion...as it is clear that I am hoping otherwise 😀
And I am frustrated with being in limbo in the thread where I am trying to help this guy, because of him dropping out, not supplying the info i requested, his apparent lack of ability to improvise should I suggest something other than exact fit, and having to compete with and argue with other people trying to "help" in the same thread...
@Mooly props to you for all of the great assistance that you provide here. I know it isn't always easy
To everyone else...I sincerely appreciate your input, and yeah, the ripple spec is what I had overlooked. So thank you guys for that
I have more than enough information to work with now, assuming that guy ever comes back to his thread and can figure out how to get the LS measurements. So I am OUT
closing this browser tab...thanks again....
I appreciate all of the concern expressed over safety. I am right there with you, and just because you don't see me posting here much, please don't assume that I am one of those slap-it-together-and-if-it-works-right-now-forget-about-it types that are so abundant in audio forums. That is not me. I do things right.
But...that said, the ONE thing that has not been mentioned is that a many of the caps that are original used in speakers are small, cheap, and likely not even on par with Nichicon ES
Stated another way, I do not believe that Mooly's original advice would have posed any type of danger. Besides, these are mini-speakers and the caps would be sealed up inside. Safety is a good thing. Over thinking things can stifle. I know, I have been there too many times.
Would DB series caps be better. Yeah, they would.
But DB caps are not practical because of their significant size difference vs the original caps. The guy I was trying to help out has NOT responded to that thread since I asked him for lead spacing on his crossover PCB. So I am stuck and TBH, quickly losing motivation to continue to try to assist him. He demonstrates zero technical ability.
IMHO any thing other than exact fit replacements would be above his head. The x-over PCB is very small. He has jammed a couple regular polarized electrolytics in there and even those are an awkward fit (and has thrown away the original caps). No way would DB series fit without some out-of-the-box thinking. If I am ever able to obtain LS for the two cap positions I may post options for him, and the pros and cons for each.
Having no ripple data on anything except the DB creates a dilemma. I am not getting how ESR is a useful indicator of a cap's suitability for speaker x-over use. (caps in question are 4.7uF and 33uF BTW, clearly one is in series with the tweeter, and I would assume the other is parallel to the woofer)
I didn't want to have to write a long post like this. And no doubt this post will trigger much more discussion...as it is clear that I am hoping otherwise 😀
And I am frustrated with being in limbo in the thread where I am trying to help this guy, because of him dropping out, not supplying the info i requested, his apparent lack of ability to improvise should I suggest something other than exact fit, and having to compete with and argue with other people trying to "help" in the same thread...
@Mooly props to you for all of the great assistance that you provide here. I know it isn't always easy
To everyone else...I sincerely appreciate your input, and yeah, the ripple spec is what I had overlooked. So thank you guys for that
I have more than enough information to work with now, assuming that guy ever comes back to his thread and can figure out how to get the LS measurements. So I am OUT
closing this browser tab...thanks again....
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That is because it is not a rant. I have other more pressing things to deal with in real life. My guy is not responding to his thread. I have all the info I need. And I appreciate all the help I received, and said so multiple times.
What about that do you not understand? How is that a rant?
got **** to do....bye 🙂
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