Nowhere.
Why go back to imperfect old technology while we have WAY better components today
In the old days they used PIO because they didn´t have any better.
Because they are needed in certain applications, the major one being motor run caps.
Again, it's horses for courses.
Again, it's horses for courses.
We are talking Audio here, not motor starting and running electromechanics.
In the Audio domain, as mentioned above by DF96, since it´s really really hard to achieve real improvements, lots of people calm their anxiety not by building something better (which is a Herculean task) but something different, which is easy peasy.
Why does the Queen of England ride an 8 MPH uncomfortable bouncing carriage, when she might ride a fast, smooth, VERY comfortable car?
because she must "show" she´s actually "different.
Does that make the slow jumpy carriage "better" than *any* car available in the World? (Even a Yugo 😀 ) ... not at all.
For which, apparently, they isn't any better. Sometimes it pays to be precise.
Can you show us some tests or measurements that show PIO caps to be inferior to some other types in audio? I'd be interested to see them.
Gee got people with opposing opinion hard to follow, I just ask which part of a typical chip amp circuit benefit most from a capacitor change, is it the input or output or power?
I think PIO in general have more supple sound to amp, some say same for tube in amp, some say wrong, solid state is right. Some say opposite is right.
I think it is like this, and my say got same weight as any body else opinion:
Microphone and recording stuff bleach out sound much. U call that 'neutral', but it is not and dac or amp or whatever that also do that add more bleach to sound and make me feel want to turn off music. I dont want turn off music so try tube or paper oil cap - if got money and cold room try both haha jus joke
So tube and PIO add but not add, they restore the non bleachiness or fullness to music - unless u believe mic and mixer and recording tech already so perfect no need - I think it is not perfect. I think tube and PIO always already "on the right track". Until they make recording perfect, this will do. Class D with tube with PIO good. CLose to actual. All tube with PIO better, but not good for ecology? Ah.
SO this thread very little help to me. I go now.
I think PIO in general have more supple sound to amp, some say same for tube in amp, some say wrong, solid state is right. Some say opposite is right.
I think it is like this, and my say got same weight as any body else opinion:
Microphone and recording stuff bleach out sound much. U call that 'neutral', but it is not and dac or amp or whatever that also do that add more bleach to sound and make me feel want to turn off music. I dont want turn off music so try tube or paper oil cap - if got money and cold room try both haha jus joke
So tube and PIO add but not add, they restore the non bleachiness or fullness to music - unless u believe mic and mixer and recording tech already so perfect no need - I think it is not perfect. I think tube and PIO always already "on the right track". Until they make recording perfect, this will do. Class D with tube with PIO good. CLose to actual. All tube with PIO better, but not good for ecology? Ah.
SO this thread very little help to me. I go now.
In a 'one person one vote' democracy each vote is worth the same. This principle does not apply to opinions. We all weight opinions, based on our opinion of the person offering his opinion.LaurantSia said:
Democracy is two lions and a lamb deciding what to eat for lunch. LIBERTY is a well-armed lamb having an equal say in the matter.
If we're moving to animal analogies, here is the elephant in the room.
The simple fact everyone has overlooked so far is that PIO caps have a foil conductor, as opposed to most poly or whatever mass production caps, which use metalized plastic. In my extensive experience, a true metal foil cap will almost always sound better than any "plastic" cap, and in most cases it's not even close. The paper or oil is not the crucial element, but the foil certainly is, and that's what costs more.
But then, I don't spend my time gazing at graphs and oscilloscopes. If you must have that kind of proof, I cannot provide it. I know listening to music is not a highly valued criterion here, especially among a couple of regular posters who will never be persuaded that a human's hearing can detect elements of reproduced sound that a machine cannot.
Peace,
Tom E
The simple fact everyone has overlooked so far is that PIO caps have a foil conductor, as opposed to most poly or whatever mass production caps, which use metalized plastic. In my extensive experience, a true metal foil cap will almost always sound better than any "plastic" cap, and in most cases it's not even close. The paper or oil is not the crucial element, but the foil certainly is, and that's what costs more.
But then, I don't spend my time gazing at graphs and oscilloscopes. If you must have that kind of proof, I cannot provide it. I know listening to music is not a highly valued criterion here, especially among a couple of regular posters who will never be persuaded that a human's hearing can detect elements of reproduced sound that a machine cannot.
Peace,
Tom E
If you want my subjective opinion, I seldom managed to like PIO caps. The ones I listened to - Jensens, Russian K40, K42. They all have a certain sweetness, harmonically rich midrange, but lack of speed and attack, too calm, laid back. Sometimes they can lack fine details and highs. Some can do an emphasis on certain frequencies, mostly on the midrange or midbass domain.
Although other PIO caps might exist that could contradict these phenomena. PP in oil is a different thing.
Calm sounding PIOs are great to balance an aggressively sounding system. But there are more things you can tweak for cheap than investing into a hugely expensive PIO cap.
Some people believe PIO should be great, because it's built from natural dielectrics. I don't believe the combination of paper + oil is something really natural, especially the oil.
I have some K40s or K42s lying around. I can send a pair to you, if you wish to taste a bit from the PIO signature. 🙂
Although other PIO caps might exist that could contradict these phenomena. PP in oil is a different thing.
Calm sounding PIOs are great to balance an aggressively sounding system. But there are more things you can tweak for cheap than investing into a hugely expensive PIO cap.
Some people believe PIO should be great, because it's built from natural dielectrics. I don't believe the combination of paper + oil is something really natural, especially the oil.
I have some K40s or K42s lying around. I can send a pair to you, if you wish to taste a bit from the PIO signature. 🙂
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