There are valid arguments for eating 'natural' food. There are no such arguments for hearing 'natural' electronics.50AE said:
Unless the paper is handmade it is not very natural either. Handmade paper would result in difficult capacitor manufacture, as the paper thickness would vary, and probably a bad outcome as the winding tension would vary too. Perhaps a good way to make a very expensive and quite poor quality cap?
What is Inside a Capacitor?
I have experience of Aerovox HID capacitors like the red filled one in the video.
IIRC the oil is treated soya oil with preservatives and other ingredients.
This stuff is foul smelling, looking, feeling and likely tasting too.
Dan.
I have experience of Aerovox HID capacitors like the red filled one in the video.
IIRC the oil is treated soya oil with preservatives and other ingredients.
This stuff is foul smelling, looking, feeling and likely tasting too.
Dan.
Organic oils have become more popular to dodge rules about the use and disposal of toxic mineral oils. The trouble with vegetable oils is that they oxidise if they are not perfectly sealed from the atmosphere
Some old discussion
Oil in Paper in oil capacitor.
Especially when people with nothing to contribute show up to make boring comments like yours.
Peace,
Tom E
just replaced some paper in oil coupling caps in a tube power amp, the output tubes were red plating.....replaced with modern plastic film cap and problem went away.....YMMV
i wish people are more forthcoming and discuss failure rates of caps likewise....
i wish people are more forthcoming and discuss failure rates of caps likewise....
Can you say leakage? That is a failure of the capacitor which then leads to a failure of the device.
I have heard so many PIO capacitors over my lifetime and so am hard pressed to remember specifics. Over 40 years of aggregate experience shows that PIO and several other types of capacitors cause the signal to be distorted. Solid tantalum caps, non-C0G/NP0 ceramic caps are also best left by the side of the road. I measure capacitors with an HP 4263A LCR meter, and I watch the dissipation numbers carefully. There is a solid agreement between this reading and the amount of measured distortion in an amplifier. Sometimes the number difference isn't huge, but it is there and pretty obvious if you look at the residuals from the THD meter (HP 339A in my case).
Basically, capacitors can start to cause trouble once you start dropping AC signal voltage across them. If they are in high impedance circuits, look out! Distortion city.
Now for those folks who claim you can't measure what they hear - wanna bet? Again, you're looking at the residuals. Often times distortion can be measured and the user will claim perfection, yet they always seem to comment to the positive when distortion is reduced without telling them. They don't know what you did, but the device will sound better. With CD players, a well set up transport sounds better than one that isn't. This from years of adjusting CD players for best performance (per the manual usually).
Hi TomWh,
Of course, we are assuming a trained and realistic listener, not someone untrained who happens to like a particular distortion. We are also talking about music reproduction systems and not something that is used to "create that sound" that you happen to like.
Now for the really tough nut for people to swallow. These days we can measure speakers and predict accurately how they will be perceived. I can't do this, but the NRC and Harmon International can. They have proved this many times in the past if you care to read up on it.
Humans are very poor test instruments. We are good at comparing things, but not very good at sticking absolute numbers on things. So to all those who honestly believe their ears are better than good test equipment with a good operator, time to re-evaluate your beliefs. The best a critical listener can do is agree with said equipment and operator. There is one thing that might make this easier for you to take. Sometimes the differences in readings are small, and it isn't going to be just putting something "on a scope". Things are more complicated than that and we really have to look at the detail closely. However, the test equipment approach is repeatable and consistent. Humans are anything but.
-Chris
I have heard so many PIO capacitors over my lifetime and so am hard pressed to remember specifics. Over 40 years of aggregate experience shows that PIO and several other types of capacitors cause the signal to be distorted. Solid tantalum caps, non-C0G/NP0 ceramic caps are also best left by the side of the road. I measure capacitors with an HP 4263A LCR meter, and I watch the dissipation numbers carefully. There is a solid agreement between this reading and the amount of measured distortion in an amplifier. Sometimes the number difference isn't huge, but it is there and pretty obvious if you look at the residuals from the THD meter (HP 339A in my case).
Basically, capacitors can start to cause trouble once you start dropping AC signal voltage across them. If they are in high impedance circuits, look out! Distortion city.
Now for those folks who claim you can't measure what they hear - wanna bet? Again, you're looking at the residuals. Often times distortion can be measured and the user will claim perfection, yet they always seem to comment to the positive when distortion is reduced without telling them. They don't know what you did, but the device will sound better. With CD players, a well set up transport sounds better than one that isn't. This from years of adjusting CD players for best performance (per the manual usually).
Hi TomWh,
Actually, I have built enough stuff and repaired even more. My test gear will absolutely tell me what sounds good. It's all about how you use your instruments and the skill a person has as to whether they can use the equipment to determine how it will sound.
Of course, we are assuming a trained and realistic listener, not someone untrained who happens to like a particular distortion. We are also talking about music reproduction systems and not something that is used to "create that sound" that you happen to like.
Now for the really tough nut for people to swallow. These days we can measure speakers and predict accurately how they will be perceived. I can't do this, but the NRC and Harmon International can. They have proved this many times in the past if you care to read up on it.
Humans are very poor test instruments. We are good at comparing things, but not very good at sticking absolute numbers on things. So to all those who honestly believe their ears are better than good test equipment with a good operator, time to re-evaluate your beliefs. The best a critical listener can do is agree with said equipment and operator. There is one thing that might make this easier for you to take. Sometimes the differences in readings are small, and it isn't going to be just putting something "on a scope". Things are more complicated than that and we really have to look at the detail closely. However, the test equipment approach is repeatable and consistent. Humans are anything but.
-Chris
That gets me to wondering what sort of test gear would be able to measure EXACTLY why tube amps sound better to most guitarists than solid-state ones? I really don't think it's THD or frequency response, or any of the normal tests.
For music instrument amps with tubes, They say you can push to +3dB.
That range from 0 dB to +3dB is important. Because tube give you a
nice "distortion ramp" up.
From what they say in the solid state world, anything over 0dB and
your screwed! They get that nasty solid state sound to them. At least
that is what I've heard and it's one of the reasons I went back to school...
...to learn more about it and understand the solid state stuff the old fashioned
way...by the numbers. \
Cheers,
Post Script: I'd give you some numbers and screen shots but everything
is all torn apart and in pieces...the worst part, I'm reorganizing my bench
putting up free standing shelving, etc, etc, etc, organizing...
...all of this means I won't find anything for a long long time...
...everything was easy to find when I had a Jim Williams desk,
now that it's moved...
I'm...
I'm...
I'm up the rapids w/o a paddle.
I wish it were a creek, at least there you can navigate with your hands.
Son of Cheers,
That range from 0 dB to +3dB is important. Because tube give you a
nice "distortion ramp" up.
From what they say in the solid state world, anything over 0dB and
your screwed! They get that nasty solid state sound to them. At least
that is what I've heard and it's one of the reasons I went back to school...
...to learn more about it and understand the solid state stuff the old fashioned
way...by the numbers. \
Cheers,
Post Script: I'd give you some numbers and screen shots but everything
is all torn apart and in pieces...the worst part, I'm reorganizing my bench
putting up free standing shelving, etc, etc, etc, organizing...
...all of this means I won't find anything for a long long time...
...everything was easy to find when I had a Jim Williams desk,
now that it's moved...
I'm...
I'm...
I'm up the rapids w/o a paddle.
I wish it were a creek, at least there you can navigate with your hands.
Son of Cheers,
i bought a 5 kv megger just to test that cap,
esr meters came up with normal readings,
even the megger test failed to uncover anything.
except that in circuit, the output tube red plates...
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