Let me recommend the book by Dr Arto Kolinummi (via Linear Audio). To at least put the design/IC issue to rest.
Certainly there are audible limits to detecting artifacts. However, as JC points out.... over a long period of time, his products keep being near or at the top ratings. What is the reason for this consistency??
THx-RNMarsh
Certainly there are audible limits to detecting artifacts. However, as JC points out.... over a long period of time, his products keep being near or at the top ratings. What is the reason for this consistency??
THx-RNMarsh
Last edited:
My blind testing was not terribly controlled but enough to convince me. it was simply having an assistant swap boxes while I was not watching and it was really hard to tell if there were differences. If differences are hard to determine and the core musical qualities are preserved the differences are not that important. When I encounter people who are convinced that a system is not worth listening unless it has XYZ cables or ABC technology I'm not interested in their opinions.
Often people may suggest a single reason, when the reality turns out to be more complex.
JC's parasound products are well engineered tho and measure exceedingly well. Over engineered many would say. So a lot of what he produces that wins awards is grounded in a fit for purpose design. The sad part is the number of fairy dust whack job products that also win awards despite being somewhere between uncontrollable tone controls and distortion boxes.
As I have said before, if I had money and didn't want to tinker a parasound stack would do me very nicely.
As I have said before, if I had money and didn't want to tinker a parasound stack would do me very nicely.
May I then ask if you participated in the recent hi-res 24/96 listening test organized by PMA?
A few people seemed to be able to express listening preferences that correlated pretty well with measurements. Other people were more random in their preferences.
If you can pass the test to a reasonable degree, then you might consider your brain DSP to be up to the task of serving as a human measurement instrument.
In the case of JC, he is now 75 years old and doesn't hear as well as he used to, something I can partially sympathize with. I believe he now has a few selected people he uses for listening tests. They are people who's opinions seems to correlate well with reviewers and their customer base.
If you can DIY listening tests, great. If not, and you care about it, you may wish to find your own human-instrumentation to help evaluate the human preference aspects of your designs. Or you might wish to see if you can further develop your own skills, in which case I might be able to offer a brief bit of advice.
Last edited:
If you are thinking that changing a plug on a power cord is High-End or that it may sound better on faith..... that is not high-end for audio purposes. That's hobby tinkering. But it may be High-End if part of an over-all build quality/reliability that goes along with high audio quality.
let me say this again..... if you could measure distortion artifacts from mic preamp input thru console, thru recorder etc thru home to spkr as one continuous link, the total distortion thru the whole process would be quite a lot higher. And, if you used multi-tone from recording system thru play back chain.... not so hot.... a lot of detail obscured as well as well as subjective dynamic range loss. More so in an all analog process (LP).
It does appear to me that the front-end or recording system has not been as good as the playback in many cases. Why? Because years ago, a famous musician we all would know was recording in Canada and they had installed a new Neve console. I sent him a parallel trap ac line filter for the console. The note from the musician on the returned ac line filter was that it made a greater difference than changing/updating the console. (!)
THx-RNMarsh
Last edited:
Ah but you are confusing creation with reproduction. The creators want the 'sound' in most cases.
Yes, assuming they can afford it. Certainly, successful acts can.
Unfortunately, people on a budget are offered compromised products with promises of professional results.
I design a whole range of audio products, and I often 'compromise' when necessary, but I try my best to make every design as subjectively good sounding as possible. However, make no mistake, my 'best' designs are better sounding than my 'compromised' designs, and I am continually reminded of this by people who have independently listened to both in comparison. Why this is so, is what I would prefer to discuss, rather than hear rationalizations that IC's are totally OK, and very little except reasonable design engineering matters. This is what makes mid fi, you know, the affordable stuff, and is typical of what we all listen to in our automobiles, for example, as well as typically at home.
For example, listening to NPR at the moment, I am using a 20+ year old, stock, (except for slightly increased output bias), HCA-1000 power amp, driven by a Comcast digital box. It drives a pair of Sequerra MET 7's in front, a pair of older Sequerra Met 7's in series, (out of phase) for surround sound pickup, and a VMPS subwoofer. Quite a challenge, but it is not my reference system, and while I enjoy it, it is only good for TV and NPR speech. It is just like my Acura, which I use to go to Safeway and back, mostly, or other minor trips. It works just fine for that, but it never gets my 'blood' running on a twisty road, or other road test. The Porsche, however, fills in on occasion, and never ceases to amaze me when I can drive it freely. It is the same with my larger audio system, where I use a modified OPPO 105, a CTC Blowtorch, a Linn Turntable with a Lyra MC cartridge, and a vacuum tube Marantz 10 tuner, to drive a larger Parasound power amp prototype, that drives a pair of Wilson Audio Sasha loudspeakers. On top of that, I added the ENIGMA super tweeters driven by a Chinese made triode amp that I can switch in when listening to serious audio material. I need all this, as well as a pair of STAX vacuum driven electrostatic headphones for serious evaluation of audio equipment. Less than this makes for serious compromise, in my listening opinion. So, if I should evaluate MQA for example, I do not fool myself by listening with compromised audio playback, but I listen with stuff equal or better than I have at home, like what I did, for example, at the LA Audio Show. I am afraid that many here do not go to that extent to evaluate future audio developments, so they become meaningless to you, until the 'future' becomes normal, just like 24-96K is today, rather than CD or MP-3 in the past.
For example, listening to NPR at the moment, I am using a 20+ year old, stock, (except for slightly increased output bias), HCA-1000 power amp, driven by a Comcast digital box. It drives a pair of Sequerra MET 7's in front, a pair of older Sequerra Met 7's in series, (out of phase) for surround sound pickup, and a VMPS subwoofer. Quite a challenge, but it is not my reference system, and while I enjoy it, it is only good for TV and NPR speech. It is just like my Acura, which I use to go to Safeway and back, mostly, or other minor trips. It works just fine for that, but it never gets my 'blood' running on a twisty road, or other road test. The Porsche, however, fills in on occasion, and never ceases to amaze me when I can drive it freely. It is the same with my larger audio system, where I use a modified OPPO 105, a CTC Blowtorch, a Linn Turntable with a Lyra MC cartridge, and a vacuum tube Marantz 10 tuner, to drive a larger Parasound power amp prototype, that drives a pair of Wilson Audio Sasha loudspeakers. On top of that, I added the ENIGMA super tweeters driven by a Chinese made triode amp that I can switch in when listening to serious audio material. I need all this, as well as a pair of STAX vacuum driven electrostatic headphones for serious evaluation of audio equipment. Less than this makes for serious compromise, in my listening opinion. So, if I should evaluate MQA for example, I do not fool myself by listening with compromised audio playback, but I listen with stuff equal or better than I have at home, like what I did, for example, at the LA Audio Show. I am afraid that many here do not go to that extent to evaluate future audio developments, so they become meaningless to you, until the 'future' becomes normal, just like 24-96K is today, rather than CD or MP-3 in the past.
Last edited:
It is not just audio that has become a fashion industry. Cars preceded it of course, but I recently discovered the fountain pen world out there.
Man! Do you know you can buy fountain pens that cost more than a well-endowed Mercedes-Benz? To write with? Its the material that is used, the many manufacturing steps and yes, guru designers that give the pen its 'soul'.
Totally exchangeable marketing speak.
Jan
Man! Do you know you can buy fountain pens that cost more than a well-endowed Mercedes-Benz? To write with? Its the material that is used, the many manufacturing steps and yes, guru designers that give the pen its 'soul'.
Totally exchangeable marketing speak.
Jan
Unfortunately, as a master audio designer, like Charles Hansen, Nelson Pass or Keith Johnson, for example, I know better than to believe that all our efforts are for 'fashion'. We all do admit that we have to supply an exterior to our products that matches the quality inside, and this adds to cost, and in my case, the biggest headaches, but it is necessary, because a 'cigar box' will not do, even for the best electronics to the outside public who have to buy our products.
The critics are selling a 'rationalization' that everything is the same to the audio public, but we know better.
The critics are selling a 'rationalization' that everything is the same to the audio public, but we know better.
Jan, A bit late to reply to your comments about compression in audio. I'm sure there are lots of reasons why recording decide to use too much compression, apart from fitting it in the dynamic range of recording medium.
I understand that some artists want that "loud" sound, but in other cases it is the recording engineer talking the artist into adding compression or digital affects into the recording. This was the case with Dexys Midnight Runners lead singer Kevin Rowland who made the mistake of listening to the recording engineer only to be severely disappointed in the sound of his groups work. On this album he went back and had it redone without compression years later.
I understand that some artists want that "loud" sound, but in other cases it is the recording engineer talking the artist into adding compression or digital affects into the recording. This was the case with Dexys Midnight Runners lead singer Kevin Rowland who made the mistake of listening to the recording engineer only to be severely disappointed in the sound of his groups work. On this album he went back and had it redone without compression years later.
Not everything uses compression, just commercial stuff. For example, the AIX demo Blue Ray that I purchased at the LA Show, plainly states that they used no compression on any of the tracks (72). Still, it is not perfect, and I discussed this demo with Richard Sequerra just yesterday, and he expressed that he heard problems with the ribbon microphones used in the vast majority of the tracks. This is 'news' to me, and how I learn and grow in understanding audio problems.
Hi John, I really do appreciate the efforts of and commitment to high end audio of yourself, those you mention here, and others. Of course you have to meet the needs of your market to be successful. There is certainly very nice and inexpensive gear around, fortunately for those looking for that.
Audio desingers should please themselves and those who they wish to sell their product too. I love the art in audio, and while I might have differring opinions on some design aspects, it is all about choice and enjoying this audio profession or hobby as it is in my case.
True , lots of challenges in Audio. I just hate to see some of my favorite music get remastered and destroyed by some crazed audio engineer, for whatever reason.
Johnl... It is not just preference, because it takes real investment in materials, both active and passive to do the best job possible. We are not making Model T Fords here, that were priced to the penny, yet became affordable to so many millions of people. Mass production is a good thing for all of us, BUT when material quality suffers, we get the kind of stuff that never works really well, and often breaks down after 1 year or so.
The Swiss, at least when I lived there, seemed to have the best compromise: Well made average products that I still have examples of in my lab, after more than 40 years of service. That is QUALITY! I am talking about dinner place mats and banana plug connecting cords, but they are but 2 examples of quality, lasting manufacturing.
The Swiss, at least when I lived there, seemed to have the best compromise: Well made average products that I still have examples of in my lab, after more than 40 years of service. That is QUALITY! I am talking about dinner place mats and banana plug connecting cords, but they are but 2 examples of quality, lasting manufacturing.
At least with cars there is actual quantifiable performance to be had for your money. For cars without any sporting pretense, the buyers know they are paying for fashion, luxury, and image.
I wasn't saying that cheap stuff sounds as good, just that cheap stuff can sound very good now days.
It is a preference when judged from a subjective standpoint. Who's to say your amp is better than say a Nelson Pass or Charles Hansen amp or visa versa, at a comparable price point? And who is going to come to the same conclusions? I haven't seen it. It is subjective ... unless you are going to judge equipment from a measurement only standpoint, and even then you have to agree what measurements are most important.
I have a pretty good idea of what I like from a design perspective, that sounds most natural to me. Not everyone will like it, just like I don't care for some very high end setups that I've heard, that others truly enjoy.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.