'You can hear it if your system is transparent enough' ... the chant of snake oil sellers since the dawn of audio .
Fine... In the mean time I am trying to find an answer from nay sayers. I will wait a little longer to see if someone in the forum understands.
Interesting... If you heard my system it might **** you off to hear what you do not know is possible. Others might learn and benefit. That is what I get from some here. You do not know what you are missing. I do not expect good answers from such who remain with closed minds.
You can test for it yourselves. You all have a VOM. No? There is sight evidence concerning plug orientation. It can be documented. That link I gave explains how to test.
How do you know that the polarity is reversed to what it was built for? Or, that the designer got the polarity correct in the first place.
How do you know that the polarity is reversed to what it was built for? Or, that the designer got the polarity correct in the first place.
Apparently... some designers are living with the notion that some mockers here share in. That explains why some components are that way.
AGAIN... look here. It explains what you can do to determine for yourselves if its snake oil, or not.
https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/determining-proper-ac-polarity/
By the way? The original snake oil was used by Chinese immigrants to the USA. It was good for curing certain ailments. Its when men who were greedy began producing substitutes that the remedy was seen as a scam.
The original snake oil was good. Today we take certain nutrients for joint and heart health that the right kind of snake oil was good for. Science has now discovered why it worked so well.
For me it isn't a case of a closed mind but being blessed , or cursed , with hearing that is so acute and sensitive i should either be a superhero or employed full time in blind listening tests i have yet to hear a power cable make an improvement to sound quality ,in fact often the reverse .
I can occasionally hear minor audible differences in speaker cable/interconnects so yeah i'm open minded about the whole cable thing but to date nothing that would tempt me to part with more than GBP 5 per metre regardless of system cost , for power i don't care which way the electrons go so long as it powers up .
I can occasionally hear minor audible differences in speaker cable/interconnects so yeah i'm open minded about the whole cable thing but to date nothing that would tempt me to part with more than GBP 5 per metre regardless of system cost , for power i don't care which way the electrons go so long as it powers up .
Last edited:
I've read similar to this before, can you be certain this is not what you are hearing?
That site is nothing but crap, your statements here are crap, this whole topic is crap. I'm sorry to have to say this but someone has to say it as it is, you keep promoting something you cannot explain ( crap cannot be explained ), you keep trying to make a ridiculous point, alone against others. It's just audiophile crap, you either have some interest on promoting this or you simply lack in basic physics understanding. I am happy to say that even though i have many friends, none of them is this naive...
This topic should be closed, it pollutes real electronics too much.
Gene, there is a wiring fault which can cause your outlet to be in a kind of reverse polarity, as it were. Which is should the Neutral and Ground mains leads be accidentally reversed at the outlet when the electrician originally wired it. What is it, exactly, that leads you to believe that while your A.C. power is in 'reverse polarity' your outlets have been correctly wired?
I have found this to be true, and easily measurable. My entire audio system is DIY, with the one exception of the Behringer DCX2496 I use as the source. With each preamp or amp I build, there are any number of transformers being used (I think my mains amp has 5 120VAC transformers inside). Each of these transformers, without exception, has a lead on the primary which exhibits higher capacitance to ground (essentially core) than the other lead. The higher capacitance lead will allow more leakage/noise to ground than the low capacitance lead.
I install the transformer in its final position, and connect the secondary as it would be in actual use (somewhere the secondary has a galvanic connection to ground through the circuitry it feeds, I don't run isolated systems). Then, you temporarily isolate the chassis/ground from the third prong, and rest it on an ungrounded surface. Hook up 120VAC to the primary, and connect a voltmeter from chassis to the third prong. Record voltage. Swap hot/neutral polarity to the transformer, and repeat the measurement. One test will have a higher number than the other, and this will reveal the lead that has the higher stray capacitance to core/ground.
I then wire up that transformer such that the high capacitance lead is connected to neutral, not hot. I do this with every transformer in the system, one by one. The end result is the lowest possible leakage from both hot and neutral, as the highest capacitance has the lowest applied voltage in service (and the lowest capacitance has the full 120V applied). This is effectively the best that can be done with the components being used. You purposely place the 'leaking ends' of the transformer to neutral.
As a side benefit, it also results in the lowest noise solution being a 120V supply voltage with a neutral referenced to ground. It therefore will operate 'better' than a 60-0-60V balanced system that is sadly promoted on this site by some (it's also prohibited by code in a residence, which everyone ignores). If you are able to wire purposely in this manner, you don't need a balanced system, this will be better than feeding a willy nilly system with balanced or unbalanced power.
Of course, the Behringer is pulled apart and the optimal hot and optimal neutral leads are identified and wired. The house is verified to be properly wired, that goes without saying.
Is it audible? Don't know, don't care; it's optimized design for lowest possible noise without having to implement unreasonable alternate methods (kVA-sized isolation transformers and noise filters everywhere). The amount of leakage current applied to the third prong is also minimized with this method. I have found shielded and unshielded transformers both exhibit some unbalance on their primaries. Study BIL insulation theory in power transformers and you will begin to appreciate the small amount of capacitance, and the significant effect it has on noise, transients, and life.
Well there certainly are appliances engineered poorly enough to react to all kinds of differences in parasitics of cables, resistors and what not.
I'm wondering what might lead to a change in circuit behaviour when the mains plug is flipped? Maybe a center tapped mains transformer that doesn't have it's center tap in the center?
Ken.... that's rare. I am speaking of having the ground in its right place. But the Hot and Neutral being reversed.
The problem happens when the manufacturer gets their Hot and Neutral at the IEC socket reversed. The wall outlets are usually not the culprit. Note how the tester senses a difference between the Neutral and Hot orientation. So... if AC had no polarity? (or, what ever the differences may be?) The tester should not be able to detect if the Neutral and Hot are reversed..... But, it does! And, that effect is what I am working with.
Last edited:
Having done measurements the leakage current from a transformer to chassis can change depending on which primary lead goes to the AC power line ungrounded conductor. Also called the hot lead.
A typical good transformer may leak 25 micro amps. The connection resistance of an RCA cable including connectors after a bit of settling in and oxidation (more likely sulfur contamination) can be 200 milliohms.
Whith just two devices connected this will result in noise at -106dB from a CD players maximum output of 2 volts RMS.
With typical line noise seen this may be modeled as noise voltage peaking at twice the line frequency and rolling off at 3dB per octave above that. Throw in the human hearing sensitivity Fletcher-Munson curves and the result is the noise is most perceived in the 1,500 to 6,000 hertz range. That is why some folks report swapping hot/neutral on power cords improves midrange resolution.
With more than two devices or transformers this noise may become a problem. Of course I only measured high quality low power transformers. A power amplifier power transformer will have much higher leakage current.
I would expect the issue to be well perceived when the program material is less than 40 dB above the noise floor.
A typical good transformer may leak 25 micro amps. The connection resistance of an RCA cable including connectors after a bit of settling in and oxidation (more likely sulfur contamination) can be 200 milliohms.
Whith just two devices connected this will result in noise at -106dB from a CD players maximum output of 2 volts RMS.
With typical line noise seen this may be modeled as noise voltage peaking at twice the line frequency and rolling off at 3dB per octave above that. Throw in the human hearing sensitivity Fletcher-Munson curves and the result is the noise is most perceived in the 1,500 to 6,000 hertz range. That is why some folks report swapping hot/neutral on power cords improves midrange resolution.
With more than two devices or transformers this noise may become a problem. Of course I only measured high quality low power transformers. A power amplifier power transformer will have much higher leakage current.
I would expect the issue to be well perceived when the program material is less than 40 dB above the noise floor.
Last edited:
So, it is as DF96 and zigzag have said, it can make a difference due to stray capacitance, and imbalance. It can follow then that if a number of transformers are involved reversing can have an effect but there is no absolute right or wrong polarity as the OP is saying?
Instead of flipping and leaving the power cord upside down (impossible to do with three pronged plugs) I make the wire reversal at the IEC socket inside the component with what should be the Hot and Neutral. Then, when I perform the same test? It shows the three pronged plug to be properly oriented for lowest noise/leakage.
After that is corrected.. that the system simply sounds a bit more relaxed and transparent. That is what I have been able to witness to. I find that some systems allow you to hear such differences without a problem. And, I have owned various levels of audio systems. Its been a universal trait for me so far. I am a musician. I know what real instruments can sound like in various rooms. Maybe that's why I know what to listen for.
Last edited:
Again I (and a number of other audiophiles) may have chosen a wrong term. This thread may be narrowing down what it actually is that is taking place.
Well that makes sense, the tester is measuring the leakage to earth via the chassis and primary winding which changes due to the imbalances in the transformer already mentioned. Yes, terminology can often be the factor that causes misunderstanding and confusion. It's interesting to persist though, and not jump to conclusions too readily 😉🙂
Last edited:
There is less external noise injection when the grounded conductor (neutral) is connected to the end of the primary winding that starts closest to the transformer core. But that is an order of magnitude or more below the noise you get from current flowing through the interconnect shield which in RCA cords also carries signal.
That is why I knew I had to persist. For I knew what I found can be replicated. Its apparently a problem when audiophiles develop their vocabulary that does not jive with the more technically inclined.
I also persisted, because anyone here who is serious about their music reproduction could benefit if they applied this principle to all their components in their audio chain.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.