Every now and again I get fed up with my pointless office job, and wonder what would happen if I started a tube / audio company.
I have built a few hi-fi amps, and built and sold a couple of guitar amps for musicians and the like, and I have repaired various SS and tubed amplifiers that people have given me. I have also sold some tubes on ebay and made a little money that way.
I guess what I want to know is, does anyone here make their living out of tubes or audio, and is it possible to do full-time?
Also when your hobby becomes your job, does it kill the fun?
Hi Shifty,
Kevinkr, Wavebourne, and others had some really great advice, and stories! Mine isn't much different. I started out as an Audiophile visiting the 2 channel shops in the Dallas Area, when there were many of them around in the late 80's and a Early 90's. My uncle was a TV repair man before the "throw away TV"market came along, and I loved going down to the shop, they were working more and more with solid state TV's, so my beginning in electronics was with SS, at this time there was more SS gear in shops with only a few company's that sold gear using Vacuum Tubes like Audio Research, VTL, Conrad-Johnson and a few others, and their share of the audio market was very slim at that time, anyway, I began taking correspondence courses in Electronics Engineering, the course study began with analog devices,vacuum tubes and eventually into SS devices and ultimately into digital basics and application. I made it into about a year and a half into the course, and because of money, and the need of an instructor had to quit, but I did maintain about a 90% average. I even began to do a few projects with Audio amplifiers, phono stages, and the like using solid state devices.
Well to fast forward through a marriage, having my own construction business till today, I began to get back into electronics after over a decade and getting myself familiar again with the math, and execution of designs, I decided to start building again and selling some. I had a huge break about 2 years ago when Dick Olsher, of the Absolute Sound Magazine, contacted me and wanted to do a review
on one of my products so I agreed to send Him one of the Preamps I was selling, and it turned into a marvelous review, I was stunned! I was expecting " this is a piece of crap, and don't buy it! In the article. Business exploded was doing really well,it's slowed down some, I've picked up a dealer, and looking at getting another, while at the same time trying to transition from my construction business into selling more gear, it's really tough, I've hired more help to run the masonry business, so I can have more time in designing and building gear, it's a slow process,and you have to pace yourself. I'm still operating debt free for the most part, which is the way to go!
I'm still going to say " Go for it!" You may one day just find that right investor, and marketer that will really get you going, that's what I'm hoping for.
Amen brother.
@ Wavebourn
Audiophiles will not buy EBay stuff, and publishing there will only hurt your brand.
You need some Audiophile page or magazine speaking marvels about you or your products.
You have a colourful enough background to profit from it, use it.
On other things you mention:
* Mythical Samarkanda !!!!! I´d kill to visit it !!!!!
An widely known but "impossible" place for Europeans for 1000 or 2000 years, 3000 km either way from any place we usually know (as halfway between Europe and China/India/Japan, in the middle of mysterious Central Asia) .
Home of the once largest and most impressive Mosque in the World:
does not look *that* large until you compare it to people entering it :
and just part of a HUGE complex, Egypt´s pyramids pale besides it:
To make it weirder, you say that "Soviet Union´s JBL" was set up *there?* ... unbelievable 😱
And these guys DID work professionally, here´s their HUGE anechoic chamber (maybe larger than what JBL or EV had? , definitely larger than the one Eminence uses):
As of:
I know, I do ... for 46 years now 😱
Didn´t speak before because I almost don´t use Tubes any more (although I started with them) but mine is also a "niche" Audio section anyway: I make custom MI amps and speakers, including Guitar/Bass/Keyboard/PA/Violin/Sax (I´m delivering one this afternoon)/Stick/Nylon Guitar/Cello/Double Bass/Accordion/Harmonica/etc.
Never ever worked on anything else, nor for anybody for a salary,but it paid my home, family, cars, travels, everything , since 1969 .
BUT:
* established a recognizable *Brand* early, from the very beginning.
Little Trade secret: people do not buy "the Product", but "something" with "the Brand" glued to it.
That´s why it´s not enough to make the best Tube amp in the World or whatever ... as you are noticing.
* Little trade secret 2: *insist, never stop* , people will not even *notice* an ad or product until after at least 3 months; once you are established, steady orders will follow even 6 months after you stopped publishing a product .... if you were in the market for years then a few will ask for it years after you disappear from public sight.
FWIW I have already sold over 14000 amplifiers or speaker cabinets, most not because of good sound (yes, they sound good but sadly that´s not the main point 🙁 ) but because a few Argentine Guitar Gods (plus Bass/keyboard/weird instrument players, in general famous people) have used them.
So invest in a full page (or at least half page) colour ad in an Audiophile Magazine or equivalent and "miraculously" they will offer a product test or equivalent where they will like it.
How do I know? ....... 🙄
Amen brother.
@ Wavebourn
Audiophiles will not buy EBay stuff, and publishing there will only hurt your brand.
You need some Audiophile page or magazine speaking marvels about you or your products.
You have a colourful enough background to profit from it, use it.
On other things you mention:
* Mythical Samarkanda !!!!! I´d kill to visit it !!!!!
An widely known but "impossible" place for Europeans for 1000 or 2000 years, 3000 km either way from any place we usually know (as halfway between Europe and China/India/Japan, in the middle of mysterious Central Asia) .
Home of the once largest and most impressive Mosque in the World:
does not look *that* large until you compare it to people entering it :
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
and just part of a HUGE complex, Egypt´s pyramids pale besides it:
To make it weirder, you say that "Soviet Union´s JBL" was set up *there?* ... unbelievable 😱
And these guys DID work professionally, here´s their HUGE anechoic chamber (maybe larger than what JBL or EV had? , definitely larger than the one Eminence uses):
As of:
I know, I do ... for 46 years now 😱
Didn´t speak before because I almost don´t use Tubes any more (although I started with them) but mine is also a "niche" Audio section anyway: I make custom MI amps and speakers, including Guitar/Bass/Keyboard/PA/Violin/Sax (I´m delivering one this afternoon)/Stick/Nylon Guitar/Cello/Double Bass/Accordion/Harmonica/etc.
Never ever worked on anything else, nor for anybody for a salary,but it paid my home, family, cars, travels, everything , since 1969 .
BUT:
* established a recognizable *Brand* early, from the very beginning.
Little Trade secret: people do not buy "the Product", but "something" with "the Brand" glued to it.
That´s why it´s not enough to make the best Tube amp in the World or whatever ... as you are noticing.
* Little trade secret 2: *insist, never stop* , people will not even *notice* an ad or product until after at least 3 months; once you are established, steady orders will follow even 6 months after you stopped publishing a product .... if you were in the market for years then a few will ask for it years after you disappear from public sight.
FWIW I have already sold over 14000 amplifiers or speaker cabinets, most not because of good sound (yes, they sound good but sadly that´s not the main point 🙁 ) but because a few Argentine Guitar Gods (plus Bass/keyboard/weird instrument players, in general famous people) have used them.
So invest in a full page (or at least half page) colour ad in an Audiophile Magazine or equivalent and "miraculously" they will offer a product test or equivalent where they will like it.
How do I know? ....... 🙄
Not so fast, I believe it was eBay that Mr. Olsher spotted my preamp for review, there are a few Audiophiles that browse eBay as well! Not a total washout by any means!
There is nothing inherently unethical about giving that type of customer what they want. Have you considered giving it to them? Good and hard if possible?
They don't want value or engineering, they want expensive baloney. Fill it with "audiophile" caps and resistors, make up some psuedo scientific sounding nonsense about it that can't be proven one way or the other, and let those chumps pay for the stuff you really want to build. Just smile and take their money.
Like your stories about the USSR. Was it possible to be self employed there?
Win W5JAG
SAme here. I have many ideas but most are esoteric. The key is to market to everyone or the very rich.
Kevinkr said:
Kevin,
I recall that Mark Twain wrote about how he used to fantasize about working on one of the big paddle wheelers he watched travel up and down the Mississippi river as a child. Once be became old enough, he did just that, but found the realities of working on a boat had erased the romantic notions of his childhood.
Sure, my answer was, "No problem, if some customer prefers particular caps, I can buy and install them".
Yes, until cops discover that. Capitalism was considered "Exploitation of Men by Men", so illegal. Socialism was a vice verse, so legal! 😀
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Is that so?
I thought self employmen, and even beeing member of a Cooperative (so all equals, all partners, all share profit equally) was not considered "exploitation of others"...... basically because there is no "others" or by definition, "nobody is employing anybody else"
In fact it would be very hard to explain me where the exploitation bit lies in these cases 😕
But maybe you could 😉
It does not matter if I was exploiting myself. 🙂
Cooperatives were allowed during Gorbachov's Perestroika, before that it was "Illegal Trade Activity".
When somebody in USA smokes a grass, who he/she harms? But it is still a federal crime! 😀
The same was there... When I was selling pedals to musicians in restaurants I could go to jail...
It's mostly been said already, but concentrate on building your brand. It does not necessarily have to involved smoke and mirrors and bs stories, but a good story is required.
A website where you write on topics audio and display your gear is a step in the right direction. Possibly a means to order over the web independent of eBay. (Your site could do ecommerce)
The customer wants to be sold on your product, do NOT offer too many options and select and settle on some passives with "pizzazz" and only offer an upgrade if a customer asks for something specific. I long resisted the exotic component argument, but in the case of capacitors there might be something to it. Russian milspec capacitors are popular with a certain segment of the crowd, if it was good enough for the Russian military it is good enough for my gear sort of approach. Don't be too surprised if you make some unsettling discoveries about caps. The FT-2 and FT-3 are good, there are others.
Unfortunately you do need to develop and describe a house sound so those looking for those attributes can find you. Be honest but promote the product like you believe that it is the best answer to your prospective customer.
Do not undercharge! Most of your early clients will not be looking for a bargain, but for something that sets them apart from their friends.
Find the local hifi clubs, and local audio fests or be one of the local audio fests. You are charming and engaging, have an amazing and passionate story to tell about your involvement with audio - tell that story.
Be patient, and find some other means of financial support to ease the strain. Denny has started the climb to success and has a lot of useful insights.
I have chosen a different path and am achieving a little bit at a time. As Denny can attest from my FB posts I have taken the insanity path. It seems to be working at least a little. (And my financial success does not hinge on succeeding in audio either)
A website where you write on topics audio and display your gear is a step in the right direction. Possibly a means to order over the web independent of eBay. (Your site could do ecommerce)
The customer wants to be sold on your product, do NOT offer too many options and select and settle on some passives with "pizzazz" and only offer an upgrade if a customer asks for something specific. I long resisted the exotic component argument, but in the case of capacitors there might be something to it. Russian milspec capacitors are popular with a certain segment of the crowd, if it was good enough for the Russian military it is good enough for my gear sort of approach. Don't be too surprised if you make some unsettling discoveries about caps. The FT-2 and FT-3 are good, there are others.
Unfortunately you do need to develop and describe a house sound so those looking for those attributes can find you. Be honest but promote the product like you believe that it is the best answer to your prospective customer.
Do not undercharge! Most of your early clients will not be looking for a bargain, but for something that sets them apart from their friends.
Find the local hifi clubs, and local audio fests or be one of the local audio fests. You are charming and engaging, have an amazing and passionate story to tell about your involvement with audio - tell that story.
Be patient, and find some other means of financial support to ease the strain. Denny has started the climb to success and has a lot of useful insights.
I have chosen a different path and am achieving a little bit at a time. As Denny can attest from my FB posts I have taken the insanity path. It seems to be working at least a little. (And my financial success does not hinge on succeeding in audio either)
The best tube amps do lack that false warmth, which is a good thing. The deep bass
comes through better as well. Over time, people's tastes can change for the better, though.
Capacitors are pretty vile. I think JC's solid state circuits are good in part because
they eliminate most capacitors. Have you heard the Chinese JC-2 clone? Pretty good.
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There was actually a case of this: imagine someone as famous as Johnny Cash, the author and singer of his own songs, decides to have a little business on a side and establishes a small shop making the PA tube amps, rack mounted PP 200 Watters with 8 x 6P3S, built like a tank and reliable as a brick... the bar/restaurant musicians had no chance to get that kind of gear in USSR back in end 70-s.
The soviet "justice" sentenced him for 10 years on the grounds of "making profit activity" crime (fokin socialiZm, kiss my ****, you NA people have no idea of what -the-previous-one- was trying to pull you into), so the guy did 6 years behind the bars... for peanuts... true story, actually. He had been released at about time when "perestroika" began and keeping him in a jail lost any sense, re-established the business, and our band actually used two of those amps. Being quite beaten up and abused they never failed, never broke.
Do you assume I use too many and too bad capacitors? 😕
Did you hear my amps? Why are you sure that they do lack of warms? Not false, but real warmth, that only available as an absence of nasty sounding distortions? ;-)
From the customer's reaction, it sounds like your amps lack that false warmth, which is good.
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Of course they do, the same customer mentioned that they heard more details in their music. 😀
Incredible but true: Brazil´s largest speaker factory was ... NOVIK .... founded by "a Russian emigré who escaped from Communist China" and who joined forces with Q"an American who travelled to Brazil to install Radar sytems , loved the Country and stayed"
They did very well until Chinese imports killed them 10 years ago.
Small World indeed:
They did very well until Chinese imports killed them 10 years ago.
Small World indeed:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Really fascinating stories. I think its possible to make at least part living with tube audio but itll be a full time activity and then some. A secondary part time job for bread on the table is probably how it will be.
I got out of studies with only a bachelor and wanted to work with analog design. Well analog design requires at least a masters degree so I only got various service engineer jobs. Always interested in electronics so read books all the time. Had already built my own amps since first year in college and kept that up like everyone else here. Tough times in the early 2000 decade and I got a opportunity to try my own business. So I tried selling guitar amps of own design for a living. Well seems everyone else also started offering custom handmade gear around the same time. Had a blast designing and building tube gear but always with another side job. However in the end my experience and time spent educating my self landed me my present job as an analog designer. So I work in a r&d department with masters and phds because they view my experience and selfeducation as just as good. So for me my adventures in tube audio got me to where I wanted.
But be aware trying for it will be a all consuming affair and not family friendly at all.
Good luck.
Hey Wavebourn you should try selling your amps in Russia. They will love high end american amp designed by fellow Russian.
I got out of studies with only a bachelor and wanted to work with analog design. Well analog design requires at least a masters degree so I only got various service engineer jobs. Always interested in electronics so read books all the time. Had already built my own amps since first year in college and kept that up like everyone else here. Tough times in the early 2000 decade and I got a opportunity to try my own business. So I tried selling guitar amps of own design for a living. Well seems everyone else also started offering custom handmade gear around the same time. Had a blast designing and building tube gear but always with another side job. However in the end my experience and time spent educating my self landed me my present job as an analog designer. So I work in a r&d department with masters and phds because they view my experience and selfeducation as just as good. So for me my adventures in tube audio got me to where I wanted.
But be aware trying for it will be a all consuming affair and not family friendly at all.
Good luck.
Hey Wavebourn you should try selling your amps in Russia. They will love high end american amp designed by fellow Russian.
I don't think so. Russians believe that foreigners design better. 😀
By the way, I have an idea. What if to add a tube stage on input of the amp that can be bypassed, like a starving 6SN7, with paper in oil capacitors? Would it increase a value of the amp for cargo-cult audiophiles? 😕
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