How can changing from electrolytic capacitors to another capacitor of the same value throw things off? Is this just a personal preference?
JRH, the ESR CAN be very different, and MIGHT matter. Only way to find out is to measure and simulate or experiment. 🙂
Best,
Erik
Best,
Erik
Depending on the age of the crossover components, there may have a change in the effective capacitive value of the caps - and cheapie NPE are renowned for wider tolerance range than foil caps- that a foil's potential lower ESR might not be your biggest concern. If an official manufacturer's schematic is available, I'd be inclined to start with the topology and parts values therein rather than measuring parts that may have drifted - and certainly instead of reverse engineering or second guessing at "something better"
Ok, let's see what these Indiana line arbour 4.04 are like
They look to be a classic two way speaker, but we read that there's another woofer on the bottom
Arbour 4.04 3 vie, da scaffale - Scheda Prodotto - Indiana Line
The lower X-over point is said to be placed at 70 Hz, and that's quite strange by looking at the size of the passive components...
Probably it's more a 2.5 way speaker rather than 3 way.
The talk about the components themselves is rather stupid without looking at the entire design, don't you think ?
So I would expect to find the FR woofer to be in a little closed volume and the woofer on the bottom to be in a vented box.
Probably the bottom woofer has some weight added to the cone.
They look to be a classic two way speaker, but we read that there's another woofer on the bottom
Arbour 4.04 3 vie, da scaffale - Scheda Prodotto - Indiana Line
The lower X-over point is said to be placed at 70 Hz, and that's quite strange by looking at the size of the passive components...
Probably it's more a 2.5 way speaker rather than 3 way.
The talk about the components themselves is rather stupid without looking at the entire design, don't you think ?
So I would expect to find the FR woofer to be in a little closed volume and the woofer on the bottom to be in a vented box.
Probably the bottom woofer has some weight added to the cone.
Indiana line arbour 4.04
According to Indiana line these are the x-over points and slopes:
crossover frequency: 70 / 3500 Hz
crossover slope: 12 / 12 / 12 dB/oct
The inductor and capacitor on the lower woofer are probably in the >15.0 mH and >100uF range. Replacing the lower woofers electrolytic capacitor with a > 100uF filmcap, is not going to make this 390 euro a pair speaker perform that much better.
My 0.02 cents, replace the Yellow cap for a budget range MKP. Mundorf M-cap Classic or ClarityCap PX in the 4-5 euro range a piece. Proceed if you can hear the difference switching caps. Otherwise you will build a very expensive "parts tomb".
As Picowall rightly commented, the next meaningfull upgrade would be seperate enclosures for the 2 woofers. That's the most obvious limiting factor in this speaker. Better caps and inductors will not overcome two woofers firing into the same cabinet.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
According to Indiana line these are the x-over points and slopes:
crossover frequency: 70 / 3500 Hz
crossover slope: 12 / 12 / 12 dB/oct
The inductor and capacitor on the lower woofer are probably in the >15.0 mH and >100uF range. Replacing the lower woofers electrolytic capacitor with a > 100uF filmcap, is not going to make this 390 euro a pair speaker perform that much better.
My 0.02 cents, replace the Yellow cap for a budget range MKP. Mundorf M-cap Classic or ClarityCap PX in the 4-5 euro range a piece. Proceed if you can hear the difference switching caps. Otherwise you will build a very expensive "parts tomb".
As Picowall rightly commented, the next meaningfull upgrade would be seperate enclosures for the 2 woofers. That's the most obvious limiting factor in this speaker. Better caps and inductors will not overcome two woofers firing into the same cabinet.
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Oh, I didn't say that. My thought was to use a bigger, say 6-7" woofer
I recommended as usual to place the x-O out of the box -and leave it there.
I know, once the box had been desecrated, it looses some kind of magic...🙄
The bottom woofer is the famous BSC element ! No wonder if by eliminating it and reworking the x-o by loosing some efficiency...
Just saying
But, important, is the picture: there is no baffle dividing the two woofers. Intentional or not ?
I recommended as usual to place the x-O out of the box -and leave it there.
I know, once the box had been desecrated, it looses some kind of magic...🙄
The bottom woofer is the famous BSC element ! No wonder if by eliminating it and reworking the x-o by loosing some efficiency...
Just saying
But, important, is the picture: there is no baffle dividing the two woofers. Intentional or not ?
Picowallspeaker, apologies for misquote.
There is no wall between the two drivers. They fire in the same cabinet. Don't know about intentional. But MKT instead of MKP is a pointer in the direction of budget restrictions. (Nothing wrong with that).
Judging by the size and count of the parts of the crossover, it is what is says on the Indiana Line site. Lower woofer only sub < 70 Hz, forward woofer bas & upto 3.5 kHz. Tweeter above that, all 12dB/oct. I don't think the lower woofer is doing anything above 70 Hz.
There is no wall between the two drivers. They fire in the same cabinet. Don't know about intentional. But MKT instead of MKP is a pointer in the direction of budget restrictions. (Nothing wrong with that).
Judging by the size and count of the parts of the crossover, it is what is says on the Indiana Line site. Lower woofer only sub < 70 Hz, forward woofer bas & upto 3.5 kHz. Tweeter above that, all 12dB/oct. I don't think the lower woofer is doing anything above 70 Hz.
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Of course the best methology is to have each piece separated in order to have the full set displayed on sight and on-ears to carefully select each sound in relation to some changement.
What you have now - it's the most common case - is a set of sound sources assembled in some kind of enclosure and placed in environment.
What you have now - it's the most common case - is a set of sound sources assembled in some kind of enclosure and placed in environment.
( stiil I don't believe there is no sect inside )
It's more of a passband design as I may see, it resembles it.
The 70 Hz data is given (=data ) as the boost point.
If you look at the pictures of the x-over one page back, you can see the top of the terminalcup.
Amen, Reverend. Building a good loudspeaker is similar to building a guitar, every component masks the signal some. If you start out with a driver that distorts readily, and has frequency response irregularities, changing caps and coils might not make an appreciable difference.
That's not to say it shouldn't be done, it is how many of us start out.
The caution is against spending big money in columns that have diminishing returns.
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HUH??? Building a guitar and building a loudspeaker are VERY different! Every component makes a difference, sure, but it doesn't necessarily MASK the tone. For electric guitars, distortion and "frequency response irregularities" ARE what makes the sound that most musicians want to hear. Totally different from music RE-production, as in HiFi systems.
https://youtu.be/sNzJjlV1TOA
Note the use of the word 'similar'.
Acoustic principles are constants.
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Thanks for sharing that---obviously a very smart dude, and a pretty darn good guitarist! So a guitar's sound is dependent on EVERY ONE of its components, and the good ones give back what you put in and don't subtract.
I once saw a quote from a HiFi loudspeaker manufacturer who claimed that his cabinet was so good acoustically that it was like a musical instrument. My thought was---that's exactly what you DON'T want from a HiFi loudspeaker---one that ADDS tonality to the music put into it. It should add NOTHING---it should put out EXACTLY what is put in and nothing else.
In terms regarding the OP, exchanging components will help a good design sound the best it can, up to the limits of the drivers.
This is a clever, if complicated design that reminds me of Roy Allison's bookshelf speakers.
We should offer encouragement to hobbyists that wish to tinker, while cautioning them about expenses.
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This is a clever, if complicated design that reminds me of Roy Allison's bookshelf speakers.
We should offer encouragement to hobbyists that wish to tinker, while cautioning them about expenses.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
Sure, agree. But we have to be honest about the possible effects of a crossover upgrade for a given design. That's part of the tinker/ learn thing. The why part.
We should add that with better products, we do not know more than the designer does. For stuff thrown together, sure. But an engineered speaker was given more time, attention and testing. Changing the way it sounds will be departing from "flat"
Example. Some may like more highs afforded by going to a foil type capacitor from an electrolytic. Add a bit of "tinkle". But, you always have to remember that the speaker no longer adheres to the published specifications. Just something to keep in mind.
I've found that the better my equipment got, the tone controls remained in the neutral position. Less well performing equipment needed something and the tone controls were the nearest at hand to change something.
-Chris
Example. Some may like more highs afforded by going to a foil type capacitor from an electrolytic. Add a bit of "tinkle". But, you always have to remember that the speaker no longer adheres to the published specifications. Just something to keep in mind.
I've found that the better my equipment got, the tone controls remained in the neutral position. Less well performing equipment needed something and the tone controls were the nearest at hand to change something.
-Chris
Hi Anatch,
I admire your hopefulness, but cannot share it. 🙂 Too many "top shelf" (and I use the term disparagingly) do NOT have a flat or smooth response at all.
In general, there are a lot of good products at various price points. And there are and have been some really questionable choices at the mid and high end of the speaker market (by price). I can think of 3 brands of mid to expensive speakers I would probably not be able to tolerate with off-the-shelf crossover designs. Then there are some brands I don't hesitate to recommend.
I can also think of several otherwise well designed speakers at modest price-points that have benefited from modest improvements in capacitors.
While I would not encourage anyone to start hacking at a crossover design, I think that there are cases when the experienced can really make something better out of the drivers and cabinet. This is however quite difficult and time consuming to do accurately, and it rarely makes sense vs. building new. 🙂
Best,
-E
I admire your hopefulness, but cannot share it. 🙂 Too many "top shelf" (and I use the term disparagingly) do NOT have a flat or smooth response at all.
In general, there are a lot of good products at various price points. And there are and have been some really questionable choices at the mid and high end of the speaker market (by price). I can think of 3 brands of mid to expensive speakers I would probably not be able to tolerate with off-the-shelf crossover designs. Then there are some brands I don't hesitate to recommend.
I can also think of several otherwise well designed speakers at modest price-points that have benefited from modest improvements in capacitors.
While I would not encourage anyone to start hacking at a crossover design, I think that there are cases when the experienced can really make something better out of the drivers and cabinet. This is however quite difficult and time consuming to do accurately, and it rarely makes sense vs. building new. 🙂
Best,
-E
Hi Erik,
I'm going to agree with you where really expensive speakers are concerned. I had the more expensive "mid-fi" products in mind. For example, I own PSB Stratus Gold speakers and wouldn't dream of making any changes without some direction from Paul Barton (the designer). But there are some $20K + speakers out there that are just expensive, and that's all. With those products, I'm convinced that the "designer" merely tried to find ways to make them expensive with little regard for actual sound reproduction.
-Chris
I'm going to agree with you where really expensive speakers are concerned. I had the more expensive "mid-fi" products in mind. For example, I own PSB Stratus Gold speakers and wouldn't dream of making any changes without some direction from Paul Barton (the designer). But there are some $20K + speakers out there that are just expensive, and that's all. With those products, I'm convinced that the "designer" merely tried to find ways to make them expensive with little regard for actual sound reproduction.
-Chris
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