Hello everyone. I use Indiana line arbour 4.04 speakers with them I am satisfied but I would like to improve a little if possible. Is it possible to get something better sound with replacing the elements in the crossover with better quality parts. Or does someone deals with the calculation of the better values for the crossover.
...try to bring out the x-over of the box.
Use the necessary >1m cables to make available the speaker's terminals out of the box.
And that's it !
Or better: eliminate the PCB, if any, and mount the components point-to-point.
You don't even have to use the soldering iron, just use mammouth to clamp firmly component's reophores together, and those with the wires.
At this point....
Use the necessary >1m cables to make available the speaker's terminals out of the box.
And that's it !
Or better: eliminate the PCB, if any, and mount the components point-to-point.
You don't even have to use the soldering iron, just use mammouth to clamp firmly component's reophores together, and those with the wires.
At this point....
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Superficially looking, you could get a tiny little bit of an improvement by exchanging one good part type for another one because you know you did something for the better so it has to sound that way. This is common practice.
On the other side, if you really wanted to find out if there is any potential in improving the sound of it, you'd have to find an expert for this kind of an evaluation, trust his expertise findings and let him or let yourself implement those changes. Very tricky business, not to mention that there is not many people out there able to do that kind of work for the compensation goodness knows how little.
So, you're probably best served to exchange the "bad" non-polarized electrolyte capacitors for the better polyprop types and be done with it, maybe resistors as well.
I won't try to make inappropriate analogies with car modifications to prove my point.
On the other side, if you really wanted to find out if there is any potential in improving the sound of it, you'd have to find an expert for this kind of an evaluation, trust his expertise findings and let him or let yourself implement those changes. Very tricky business, not to mention that there is not many people out there able to do that kind of work for the compensation goodness knows how little.
So, you're probably best served to exchange the "bad" non-polarized electrolyte capacitors for the better polyprop types and be done with it, maybe resistors as well.
I won't try to make inappropriate analogies with car modifications to prove my point.
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Hi branet,
Replace the crossover elements with the same exact type that are in there. That means electrolytic capacitors where there was electrolytic capacitors before. Replacing them with a different type will change the sound so that it isn't as designed and may not be flat. Any characteristics of the capacitors were designed in.
Replacing film capacitors with like. These are high current paths, so what you really need are foil capacitors. The film types can burn off slowly allowing the capacitance to drop over time. So if they are older speakers played at high volumes, that might actually be a problem. The wire wound resistors are fine unless you can see they have been burned. If so, replace with same. You can use a higher power rating resistor if you want.
Best, Chris
Replace the crossover elements with the same exact type that are in there. That means electrolytic capacitors where there was electrolytic capacitors before. Replacing them with a different type will change the sound so that it isn't as designed and may not be flat. Any characteristics of the capacitors were designed in.
Replacing film capacitors with like. These are high current paths, so what you really need are foil capacitors. The film types can burn off slowly allowing the capacitance to drop over time. So if they are older speakers played at high volumes, that might actually be a problem. The wire wound resistors are fine unless you can see they have been burned. If so, replace with same. You can use a higher power rating resistor if you want.
Best, Chris
While I doubt that aside from the larger size, there's any downside to increasing the power rating of resistors, something not yet mentioned is that if you're wanting to upgrade all parts in an XO that includes inductors, "improving" to a larger diameter / lower DCR coil might actually alter tonal balance by reducing attenuation engineered into the system. That's something that was explicitly specified in a pair of XO's recently designed for me for use in an MTM system.
So today I opened the speaker and this is what I saw.
Tweeter T-75-6D 6 OHM
2 X woofers GM-S1183ER/B 8 OHM
Google could not find anything about drivers 😕
Xover has two resistors 5W4R7J and 5W8R2J, two polarized I could not see the value and one non polarized 3,3J 100V, and three coil.
frequency response: 50÷22000 Hz
crossover frequency: 70 / 3500 Hz
crossover slope: 12 / 12 / 12 dB/oct
Is this enough to someone experienced can make schematics of xover?
Tweeter T-75-6D 6 OHM
2 X woofers GM-S1183ER/B 8 OHM
Google could not find anything about drivers 😕
Xover has two resistors 5W4R7J and 5W8R2J, two polarized I could not see the value and one non polarized 3,3J 100V, and three coil.
frequency response: 50÷22000 Hz
crossover frequency: 70 / 3500 Hz
crossover slope: 12 / 12 / 12 dB/oct
Is this enough to someone experienced can make schematics of xover?
Probably, I guess, the "polarized" ones are bipolar electrolytics
The non polarized, maybe a film type ?
The reverse engineering (=schematic) of a crossover is made from double check, following the parts from the input and in reverse, from each speaker.
EDIT ; the "polarized" ones might be connected in a "back to back" series.
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Branet,
This could be a fun learning experience. I think that's the best benefit. 🙂
Could you please post a pic of the crossover ? It would help assess the parts a little better.
Usually my recommendation for these types of projects is the tweeter caps and resistors. That is where you can learn the most about what matters. Post a pic and we can go from there.
You may be interested in this blog post, it will help you understand the parts involved in a crossover a little more:
https://speakermakersjourney.blogspot.com/2016/02/crossover-basics.html
Best,
Erik
This could be a fun learning experience. I think that's the best benefit. 🙂
Could you please post a pic of the crossover ? It would help assess the parts a little better.
Usually my recommendation for these types of projects is the tweeter caps and resistors. That is where you can learn the most about what matters. Post a pic and we can go from there.
You may be interested in this blog post, it will help you understand the parts involved in a crossover a little more:
https://speakermakersjourney.blogspot.com/2016/02/crossover-basics.html
Best,
Erik
A quick browse was necessary to become familiar with this clever design. Before making changes to any component, have you experimented with room position?
A small speaker cabinet with so much bass driver/internal volume will be sensitive to boundaries.
Placing these near a wall, or corner, will yield midbass emphasis.
I suspect that significant changes (note I did not call them 'improvements') might only be possible with active crossover and multiple amplifiers.
While lesser capacitors might smear HF details, the bulk of musical information is carried by the pair of woofers: fewer coils in the crossover would mean less loss to induction.
Personally, I would invest in a better seat for listening and re-arrange the room before gutting a lovely speaker.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
A small speaker cabinet with so much bass driver/internal volume will be sensitive to boundaries.
Placing these near a wall, or corner, will yield midbass emphasis.
I suspect that significant changes (note I did not call them 'improvements') might only be possible with active crossover and multiple amplifiers.
While lesser capacitors might smear HF details, the bulk of musical information is carried by the pair of woofers: fewer coils in the crossover would mean less loss to induction.
Personally, I would invest in a better seat for listening and re-arrange the room before gutting a lovely speaker.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
Are you sure it is a MKP (polypropylene capacitor)? I have seen some Indiana Line crossover's with MKT (polyester) capacitor's in the tweeter section. Both are film, and both are ok, but MKP is the choice for an upgrade. Only reason not to use MKP in the first place would be a very minor price difference (x 1000).
+1 on the x-o picture. Depending on what's in the x-o might be fun to try a low resistance (DCR) inductor on the woofers
Her are picture.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Great! Thanks for the picture. Just as i suspected, the capacitor is a polyester film (MKT). Any MKP would be an upgrade.
In theory the coils with a core could be upgraded to aircoils. But without knowing the rdc (resistance) and mH value of them, it's a bit tricky. If the rdc is really low and the mH high, you are looking at pretty expensive and big aircoils to replace / upgrade them. Cored coils add some distortion.
To be honest, from the looks, the original x-over is not terrible. Just very economical 🙂
In theory the coils with a core could be upgraded to aircoils. But without knowing the rdc (resistance) and mH value of them, it's a bit tricky. If the rdc is really low and the mH high, you are looking at pretty expensive and big aircoils to replace / upgrade them. Cored coils add some distortion.
To be honest, from the looks, the original x-over is not terrible. Just very economical 🙂
My eye goes to the big iron inductor, depending on the size and DCR, a lower DCR could give a noticeable bump in the woofer response. That would be a another iron core, large gage wire. Any markings on the inductor coil?
So my personal preferences:
Replace yellow cap wit Mundorf MKP. Replace resistors with Mills.
Maybe $20-$30 / speaker.
Worth doing as a learning exercise, not so much as speaker value exercise.
Best,
Erik
Replace yellow cap wit Mundorf MKP. Replace resistors with Mills.
Maybe $20-$30 / speaker.
Worth doing as a learning exercise, not so much as speaker value exercise.
Best,
Erik
Lastly, replace electrolytic caps with inexpensive films such as Axon.
Coils can be touchy. Changing the DCR significantly can affect sonic performance, so unless you can analyze the entire system, I would leave them alone.
Best,
Erik
Coils can be touchy. Changing the DCR significantly can affect sonic performance, so unless you can analyze the entire system, I would leave them alone.
Best,
Erik
Hi Erik,
Going from electrolytic capacitors will really throw things off. Not only that, but you should be using foil caps in crossovers, never film type capacitors.
-Chris
Going from electrolytic capacitors will really throw things off. Not only that, but you should be using foil caps in crossovers, never film type capacitors.
-Chris
anatech,
Sorry, most of my sources use film and foil capacitors interchangeably. The brand I recommended, Axon, is used as a secondary cap by high-end manufacturers in the bass, and I do as well. 🙂
It's best to measure, of course, and in a couple of situations replacing electrolytics in the woofer filter can throw off the treble (in a 2-way) but it's often worthwhile I think, but YMMV.
I encourage inexpensive experimentation.
Best,
-E
Sorry, most of my sources use film and foil capacitors interchangeably. The brand I recommended, Axon, is used as a secondary cap by high-end manufacturers in the bass, and I do as well. 🙂
It's best to measure, of course, and in a couple of situations replacing electrolytics in the woofer filter can throw off the treble (in a 2-way) but it's often worthwhile I think, but YMMV.
I encourage inexpensive experimentation.
Best,
-E
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