Questions on my subs for digital piano. Two 4 ft3 sealed boxes, 12" SB Acoustics drivers. Crossed over to Lxmini's at 60hz with boost (7db per octave?) to try and get down into the low 20hz.
1. Do I need to bother with stuffing and lining for this limited freq. range? If I do, I have some fiberglass insulation I could put in there; any lining needed if I put some of that, and keep it away from the drivers? Or should I put some 1-2" thick foam lining (open or closed cell?) or some kind of felt, and no stuffing? As I read the many posts on this thru the years, seems to be some disagreement on this issue.
2. How would it be to point them upward; they will be behind the piano and on either side of course. I'd rather point them forward really; safer for the drivers I think; but it might seem more realistic to direct one or more of them upward.
Thanks.
1. Do I need to bother with stuffing and lining for this limited freq. range? If I do, I have some fiberglass insulation I could put in there; any lining needed if I put some of that, and keep it away from the drivers? Or should I put some 1-2" thick foam lining (open or closed cell?) or some kind of felt, and no stuffing? As I read the many posts on this thru the years, seems to be some disagreement on this issue.
2. How would it be to point them upward; they will be behind the piano and on either side of course. I'd rather point them forward really; safer for the drivers I think; but it might seem more realistic to direct one or more of them upward.
Thanks.
1) 1 1/2 octaves is not a limited range 😉
Specially for subwoofers.
2) whatever rocks your boat.
Given the low frequencies involved and the low crossover point I guess that stuffing will be more effective than just "lining".
3) at such low frequencies, pointing the upwards or towards you is the same. Hey, even pointing *downwards* will alsobe the same, as long as you don´t put speaker cone too close to floor and block it.
4) that said, I question the need or even more , advisability od subwoofers for a piano of any kind.
Although lowest notes are tuned* very low, acoustic output is 95%b harmonics (lots of them) with very very little fundamental.
Boosting that will sound woofy, thumpy, and very unnatural, npthing like a piano.
Organs are a different game, because we are used to *huge* pipes in large Cathedrals and their chest moving lows ... but *pianos* ??????? I have been making Musical Instrument amplifiers since forever, and no player ever cared about chest thumping bass, yes about sharpness, clarity, definition, natural attack .... what real piano sounds like by the way.
Specially for subwoofers.
2) whatever rocks your boat.
Given the low frequencies involved and the low crossover point I guess that stuffing will be more effective than just "lining".
3) at such low frequencies, pointing the upwards or towards you is the same. Hey, even pointing *downwards* will alsobe the same, as long as you don´t put speaker cone too close to floor and block it.
4) that said, I question the need or even more , advisability od subwoofers for a piano of any kind.
Although lowest notes are tuned* very low, acoustic output is 95%b harmonics (lots of them) with very very little fundamental.
Boosting that will sound woofy, thumpy, and very unnatural, npthing like a piano.
Organs are a different game, because we are used to *huge* pipes in large Cathedrals and their chest moving lows ... but *pianos* ??????? I have been making Musical Instrument amplifiers since forever, and no player ever cared about chest thumping bass, yes about sharpness, clarity, definition, natural attack .... what real piano sounds like by the way.
Since nobody would ever mistake sound coming from loudspeakers as anything but sound coming from loudspeakers vaguely resembling a piano, Fahey is right about going for whatever sound you like.
But what are the qualities most folks associate with a piano? Maybe a single good dipole* (and a modest cone sub) will bring more pianistic pleasure than adding mostly unhelpful lower bass.
About OP wanting colossal bass, an instance of folks who look up "piano frequency range" in a wiki and are convinced they gotta have 20 Hz?
Ben
*electrostatic come to mind first
But what are the qualities most folks associate with a piano? Maybe a single good dipole* (and a modest cone sub) will bring more pianistic pleasure than adding mostly unhelpful lower bass.
About OP wanting colossal bass, an instance of folks who look up "piano frequency range" in a wiki and are convinced they gotta have 20 Hz?
Ben
*electrostatic come to mind first
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Well... I now have old AR 3-way's that go down to around 55hz, and I can tell you, the bottom part of the bottom octave is lacking. All the notes sound kind of the same. (Plus, the AR's ring like bells down when I play those low notes.) 27.5 hz is 27.5 hz, isn't it?? A real grand piano has (3?) big fat wound wires, several feet long, that vibrate at 27.5 hz (the low A), and a large soundboard that makes that sound fill the room, even an auditorium. I don't need anything more that "kinda close" to that, but seems to me I need low frequencies to get there. I don't want boomy, I want accurate, fast response down into the mid to low 20's, since pianos have harmonics down there. My Pianoteq simulation program simulates a large grand piano pretty accurately. What I may not understand much about yet is room dynamics that might give me more bass than I expect.
So would it work well to put some pink fiberglass insulation in there? I have plenty of that lying around... I just wasn't sure, from what I read, that it would have much effect in the 20 to 60hz range; might just decrease my SPL efficiency a little and not much else.
So that is good news about not needing to point the subs upwards.
I got all these new drivers in the mail the other day, the 12" subs, and the 6" and 4" Seas drivers for my Lxmini's I'm to build. I have to say, the subs surprised me by how big they are, and the Lxmini's surprised me by how small they are. My old AR's have an 8" woofer and a 6 1/2" midrange, and between the new subs and those 2 AR drivers, the piano range is covered almost to the top with reasonably big cones. With the Lxmini's, that range will be covered by the 12" sub and a 6" and a 4"; can't help but be less air moving, can it? I've heard great things about the Lxmini's, but I'm wondering if I've gone too small... As near-field monitors I think they'll be great though.
So would it work well to put some pink fiberglass insulation in there? I have plenty of that lying around... I just wasn't sure, from what I read, that it would have much effect in the 20 to 60hz range; might just decrease my SPL efficiency a little and not much else.
So that is good news about not needing to point the subs upwards.
I got all these new drivers in the mail the other day, the 12" subs, and the 6" and 4" Seas drivers for my Lxmini's I'm to build. I have to say, the subs surprised me by how big they are, and the Lxmini's surprised me by how small they are. My old AR's have an 8" woofer and a 6 1/2" midrange, and between the new subs and those 2 AR drivers, the piano range is covered almost to the top with reasonably big cones. With the Lxmini's, that range will be covered by the 12" sub and a 6" and a 4"; can't help but be less air moving, can it? I've heard great things about the Lxmini's, but I'm wondering if I've gone too small... As near-field monitors I think they'll be great though.
I had my friend who went to Eastman School of Music and has been teaching and playing recitals for a long time come and play my digital piano, and she liked it. I think it sounds a lot better than even a very nice upright (I have a good friend with one of those I've played some recently). But I'm trying to take it to another level.
As for the dipole, I wanted to use Linkwitz's dipole woofers, but Siegfried himself jumped in the forum and advised me to use 2 10" sealed box subs (or 4 if that didn't do it); he's afraid the subsonic content of the simulation program would destroy a dipole. I guess a subsonic filter might take care of that though. But anyway, he liked the idea of 2 10" subs, but I decided it would be hard to really simulate a grand piano with 10" subs so I bought the 12" ones instead... (instead of the single Aurasound NS18 I had been thinking of).
If it was me, I'd use the fibreglass, and plenty of it. It is possible to spend a lot more for stuff that works only very slightly better.
Good articles on stuffing and a system using SB 12" drivers are here and here:
Data-Bass
Zaph|Audio - SB12.3 3-Way Tower
For Fs and Q, stuffing a sealed box is ~equivalent to making the box a little bit bigger.
For frequency response, the databass example should be good, if you shift their results up by ~10Hz. That is, you might lose some efficiency around 40Hz, but gain more efficiency below 25Hz.
I agree with Fahey on point 3)
My 'subs' are a quad of 15" crossed at ~100Hz and even with that fairly high crossover, I don't think it matters which way they are pointing - I often park things (like big suitcases) in front of one of the towers, without noticing any difference in sound quality.
Do you have a measurement mic? Your LF gain might be too much, at some frequencies (see the databass article on room gain).
Also, you might get a lot of benefit from trying different placement / rearranging your furniture. I have a futon, boxes of linen etc stored in my listening room (and tools etc are stored in my linen cupboards), because the acoustics are better this way around.
Good articles on stuffing and a system using SB 12" drivers are here and here:
Data-Bass
Zaph|Audio - SB12.3 3-Way Tower
For Fs and Q, stuffing a sealed box is ~equivalent to making the box a little bit bigger.
For frequency response, the databass example should be good, if you shift their results up by ~10Hz. That is, you might lose some efficiency around 40Hz, but gain more efficiency below 25Hz.
I agree with Fahey on point 3)
My 'subs' are a quad of 15" crossed at ~100Hz and even with that fairly high crossover, I don't think it matters which way they are pointing - I often park things (like big suitcases) in front of one of the towers, without noticing any difference in sound quality.
Do you have a measurement mic? Your LF gain might be too much, at some frequencies (see the databass article on room gain).
Also, you might get a lot of benefit from trying different placement / rearranging your furniture. I have a futon, boxes of linen etc stored in my listening room (and tools etc are stored in my linen cupboards), because the acoustics are better this way around.
Hi gibbyj,
Post #1: "...12" SB Acoustics drivers..."
Which SB Acoustics 12" are they? #?
Regards,
Post #1: "...12" SB Acoustics drivers..."
Which SB Acoustics 12" are they? #?
Regards,
I've done something similar. 1916 PA starck cabinet with a GEM realpiano2. It is a mathematically modeled piano, not a sampled piano. I love the variable damper, etc...
NHT super zero's and a 10" NHT sub is what I use. I modeled so many different speakers, and even chatted back and forth with GEM developers. In the end, the bit of info that really clued me in was this developers statement:
"The output of a digital piano is meant to be reproduced by typical speakers, it is not intended to be reproduced by a speaker that is trying to be a string, or in some way trying to be an instrument."
good quality speakers with great attack (you can see them on my sound board on each side - I had removed the harp) and then a bit of normal sub to bring up the bottom end.
Anything else, and you need to work with your piano manufacturer to actually "take it to the next level."
NHT super zero's and a 10" NHT sub is what I use. I modeled so many different speakers, and even chatted back and forth with GEM developers. In the end, the bit of info that really clued me in was this developers statement:
"The output of a digital piano is meant to be reproduced by typical speakers, it is not intended to be reproduced by a speaker that is trying to be a string, or in some way trying to be an instrument."
good quality speakers with great attack (you can see them on my sound board on each side - I had removed the harp) and then a bit of normal sub to bring up the bottom end.
Anything else, and you need to work with your piano manufacturer to actually "take it to the next level."
Attachments
I suppose with four speakers in surround-sound, you could make a sound more closely resembling a piano. But not with two point-source speakers.
About this loose talk about owning a great piano simulation, what you have, I would guess, is a hand-tweaked simulation that is designed to be as close to a piano sound as produced by some specific kind of musician favoured by the developer and outputted using some specific transducer favoured by the developer (you are lucky, probably not the usual car radio speakers).
Back to Fahey, unlikely you'll get satisfying sound from the sad AR speakers, at least as you describe them*. But a world of difference between two little AR speakers and something that resembles the tone and room-filling qualities that a dipole can offer. The difference just isn't one missing bottom octave.
Ben
*In the late '60s, my friends working on piano and violin simulations used the Bell Labs standard: KLH-6.
About this loose talk about owning a great piano simulation, what you have, I would guess, is a hand-tweaked simulation that is designed to be as close to a piano sound as produced by some specific kind of musician favoured by the developer and outputted using some specific transducer favoured by the developer (you are lucky, probably not the usual car radio speakers).
Back to Fahey, unlikely you'll get satisfying sound from the sad AR speakers, at least as you describe them*. But a world of difference between two little AR speakers and something that resembles the tone and room-filling qualities that a dipole can offer. The difference just isn't one missing bottom octave.
Ben
*In the late '60s, my friends working on piano and violin simulations used the Bell Labs standard: KLH-6.
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