Thanks Chrisb.
Sorry to mention ls35a as it has crossover. I guess full range aficionados the lack of crossover is what people desire. It didn't occur to me while writing that post.
Besides vented port enclosure are there any mechanical techniques to extend lower end of frequency response? How about adding similar wide band drivers in parallel (or in series for that matter depending on driver impedance) but with mechanical filter to attenuate high frequencies. This will serve almost like F.A.S.T. 2 way speaker system. Possible ?
Regards.
Sorry to mention ls35a as it has crossover. I guess full range aficionados the lack of crossover is what people desire. It didn't occur to me while writing that post.
Besides vented port enclosure are there any mechanical techniques to extend lower end of frequency response? How about adding similar wide band drivers in parallel (or in series for that matter depending on driver impedance) but with mechanical filter to attenuate high frequencies. This will serve almost like F.A.S.T. 2 way speaker system. Possible ?
Regards.
Well, you could make a "1.5 way" (I just made that up🙂) configured like a 2.5 way, with the woofer crossed over at the baffle step or the bass rolloff frequency (f3) of the full range driver. Only the woofer will have a crossover, if you can live with that.
Bit of background:
Designed (and had someone build) a pair of FAST speakers. Standmount, 1x Fostex FE126eN, 1x Tang Band W6-1139 per side. Fostex in a small sealed enclosure, TB in an L-shaped ported enclosure tuned around 40Hz. They were pretty good, but I found things would get midrange-forward at higher listening levels. Louder = more forward, getting shouty and shrill. Increasing the level of the Tang Band woofers helped a little.
I narrowed this down to the Fostex drivers having rising THD as power increased.
To test, I ran just the Fostex drivers in their sealed boxes. Running the sim in WinISD (this was a few years ago), they dropped quickly below a couple of hundred Hz. Using a graphic EQ, I applied a crude Linkwitz Transform, and tried a variety of LF rolloff frequencies. They sounded pretty good this way. When the volume level was increased, the distortion rise was there, but because it was applied to the whole frequency range, it sounded acceptable.
IIRC, 60Hz was a good compromise (needed a good amount of boost to get there, mind) between maximum SPL and bass extension. 100Hz would go louder, 40Hz wasn't loud enough for anything other than desktop situations.
I still have those cabinets, so might do some measurements now that I have the gear.
Chris
Your on to something 😉, play around with enclosure dimensions and watch what happens to the Fs, read the reviews, if you get it right it will sound right whether solid state amp or tube amp
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When I saw your thread, it looked like you had the same idea as me. I have been crunching the numbers like you suggest.
I've heard so many consumer grade speakers where it seems the midrange frequencies have not even been considered. Typical large speakers will have a 10"or 12" woofer and the midrange will be crossed at 3 kHz. What's the point of a 3 way? There's plenty of tweeters that cross over at 2 kHz, which is hard enough to do with a large woofer. So these types of speakers make lots of bass, but it's boomy and muddy. Midrange is a garbled echo. Highs are screechy but they balance out the boom boom. And people love this type of speaker! My buddy thinks his 25 year old Sony boomers sound better than my refurbished Design Acoustics point source monitors, just because his speakers are loud and oh so bassy. Try mixing a recording on those big old coffins buddy, and see what it sounds like!
My point is that it can't be hard to do a whole lot better than that.
I'm in the process of building a pair of column speakers using Apair 7.3's. You may have seen an earlier post on this. I had some design help from Dave at Planet10 who suggested that multiple rectangular port are superior to round ports and so I will try that and see how they sound. Barring unforeseen delays, I'll have these done in about 2 weeks and I'll let you know the result.
Regards John L.
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As for "mechanical techniques" for extending bass response- that's certainly what a carefully designed BLH / MLTL is all about
For a short primer 😉 on the background and approach on which many very successful recent FR enclosure designs seen here are based you could start your reading here:
Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Design
Pack a lunch
For a short primer 😉 on the background and approach on which many very successful recent FR enclosure designs seen here are based you could start your reading here:
Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Design
Pack a lunch
I have a pair of these in smallish sealed boxes at the moment. They sound remarkable... I would love to try the MLTL project boxes "The Singularities" when I get to a point I can start making more sawdust.
Might get just a tad expensive -- but you could try using 5 or so per channel of a full-range driver, one in the center and the others in a tight ring around it. Filter the outer ones so that only lower frequencies are covered and leave the center one unfiltered -- that should help prevent comb filtering and greatly increase the bass output capability.
As presented, not even remotely true since 'round' has the least friction, but assuming here since he's incommunicado for awhile that he was referring to his Fonken concept alignments where overall, rectangular slots allow better cab construction integration, closer acoustic coupling and most importantly, can easily be designed to add acoustic resistance without having to 'put a sock in it' [stuffing], at least not initially, but only as a fine tuning tweak if required by the user.
In short, acoustic solutions for acoustic problems; my kind of design philosophy!
😀GM
And I believe that's exactly what he was getting at. I had intended using a round port until Dave suggested otherwise. These aren't merely slots in the cabinet, but have long (6") vents within the column as part of the "holey brace" that vent out the back.
It did make the construction very complex and I won't know if it's worth the effort until I listen to them. As I said earlier, I like to experiment with this stuff and I'm happy to listen to suggestions from more knowledgeable people than myself.
It did make the construction very complex and I won't know if it's worth the effort until I listen to them. As I said earlier, I like to experiment with this stuff and I'm happy to listen to suggestions from more knowledgeable people than myself.
GM, et al - let me speak for a bit on Dave's behalf - he might have a bit more long winded an explanation for his own thinking on the matter of multiple high aspect ratio ports, but as usual, you've pretty much nailed it on the head.
John - yes, it's that Chris - I'd actually be interested in the design in question - PM me, as I'll not likely be back to his email box before the weekend.
John - yes, it's that Chris - I'd actually be interested in the design in question - PM me, as I'll not likely be back to his email box before the weekend.
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The nearest driver I have seen to full range is a Fane 12-250TC.
I have a pair in a sealed cabinet and they sound OK.
The bass end is a bit light.
I have a pair in a sealed cabinet and they sound OK.
The bass end is a bit light.
I've heard a reasonably expensive fullrange implemented in one of the better designs.
Initially, it sounded very impressive but after a few minutes, I started to notice its deficiencies; lacking bass and not much top end. I came to the conclusion that it is really only a good quality clock/radio type sound.
If I couldn't afford proper active two or three way speakers, I'd consider it.
Initially, it sounded very impressive but after a few minutes, I started to notice its deficiencies; lacking bass and not much top end. I came to the conclusion that it is really only a good quality clock/radio type sound.
If I couldn't afford proper active two or three way speakers, I'd consider it.
Thanks Fast Eddie, Impunity and Chris. I will go through the info and you have put and projects you are doing.
Regards.
Regards.
Critical Phone
You know Greg, that's exactly the approach I took, with the results being of great success. Over the past year or so, I have been slowly experimenting by raising the highest point, low pass x-over frequency. I have arrived at 8k, and really like it there. Thus, I have 250-8k Hz covered by ONE driver, that is also horn loaded. It provides an immediacy and focus that simply must be heard, to be believed. In my opinion, 8 k is so high it is non consequential, and 250hz is a 4 foot wavelength. I am very pleased. Thanks, as always, for your insight.
You know Greg, that's exactly the approach I took, with the results being of great success. Over the past year or so, I have been slowly experimenting by raising the highest point, low pass x-over frequency. I have arrived at 8k, and really like it there. Thus, I have 250-8k Hz covered by ONE driver, that is also horn loaded. It provides an immediacy and focus that simply must be heard, to be believed. In my opinion, 8 k is so high it is non consequential, and 250hz is a 4 foot wavelength. I am very pleased. Thanks, as always, for your insight.
The idea that a full-range design always ‘suffers somewhat’ in the bass is a common fallacy. For instance a double Jordan Eikona design in an MLTL can easily be tuned to 27Hz for ‘flat’ response in a modest sized floorstander and readily out-performs all similarly sized commercial speaker cabinets. What’s more I would say the bass is more natural and capable of impressive spl at 25 Hz in a big enough room.
Actually I have run my pair outside in the garden for parties and the bass is certainly not lacking in any aspect; even with the bass drum and highly percussive bass tracks. I really love the sound of the bass and would not swap it for a conventional multi-way for anything.
I do have a sub-woofer that I have tried alongside smaller speakers but it really doesn’t give the depth or quality of the MLTL.
A few things to consider though:
• Choose the right drivers
• Double up on drivers if required
• Don’t be afraid to go for a low tuning value – design the cabinet as required
• Don’t be afraid to fully stuff the cabinet with something really effective
• Don’t be afraid to build in full baffle-step compensation (or the whole bass will sound under-nourished). Missing out this is often the biggest mistake in simple full-range designs and will lead to inadequate bass.
If you design for decent bass you really do get it!
Actually I have run my pair outside in the garden for parties and the bass is certainly not lacking in any aspect; even with the bass drum and highly percussive bass tracks. I really love the sound of the bass and would not swap it for a conventional multi-way for anything.
I do have a sub-woofer that I have tried alongside smaller speakers but it really doesn’t give the depth or quality of the MLTL.
A few things to consider though:
• Choose the right drivers
• Double up on drivers if required
• Don’t be afraid to go for a low tuning value – design the cabinet as required
• Don’t be afraid to fully stuff the cabinet with something really effective
• Don’t be afraid to build in full baffle-step compensation (or the whole bass will sound under-nourished). Missing out this is often the biggest mistake in simple full-range designs and will lead to inadequate bass.
If you design for decent bass you really do get it!
You're welcome!
Cool! Due probably to my lifelong tinnitus, XOs in the sibilance dominant BW is more than I can handle, so with point source drivers I limit it to ~5 kHz or above ~10 kHz, but from reading the forums for so long now, most folks like it somewhat exaggerated since it adds perceived 'detail'/'definition', hence 'focus', 'immediacy', etc., to so many instruments.
With the large horns I prefer, the HF BW is rolled off [well damped] by its inertance, so with CD horn EQ I can use a 'bypass' cap to depress this BW, letting only the 'tails' of strings, etc., and top end 'air' BW through unattenuated.
GM
I guess that's when the room modes line up and give you a >10dB boost at 25Hz. Running a 2pi sim at Xmax gives 95dB per tower at the low corner. Its an impressive amount of extension, but maximum SPL isn't great. Just another compromise.
Thanks for the eye-opener, though - its impressive for a pair of 4" drivers in a ~40L box.
Chris
FWIW I'm currently building an internet radio using a pair of Dayton PS95 point source speakers. For the size that I wanted to keep the device to, full range speakers were the easiest choice. And so far, they're sounding as well as I'd hoped.
But I think full range speakers are useful for a lot more. Last year, I built a pair of Castle Microtowers (using first batch Mark Audio CHP-70 drivers). I think they sound great and they get used very regularly.
I don't have the experience or expertise to say if full range speakers have "hidef reproduction capabilities". But at least I can say that they have the ability to perform well in the right application.
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