Mayuri and Wesayso,
I was thinking about some of the questions Mayuri had about the distance from the speaker to the listeners position. I don't exactly see why you have to be as far away from the line array to get the full spectrum of sound, doesn't make much sense to me right now. But I was also thinking that a different configuration than yours, Wesayso, would be to create an enclosure that was not so deep as your's but had the majority of the air space in the lateral dimension so it is wider and shallower. If you did some interesting internal angled baffle you bounce the wave off the back to the side and not have it reflect directly back to the speaker. Just an idea so you don't need to use as much depth. It is actually an idea I've had to make an enclosure that could work flush with a flat screen TV and the enclosure would basically be behind the screen, an L or J shaped enclosure.
I was thinking about some of the questions Mayuri had about the distance from the speaker to the listeners position. I don't exactly see why you have to be as far away from the line array to get the full spectrum of sound, doesn't make much sense to me right now. But I was also thinking that a different configuration than yours, Wesayso, would be to create an enclosure that was not so deep as your's but had the majority of the air space in the lateral dimension so it is wider and shallower. If you did some interesting internal angled baffle you bounce the wave off the back to the side and not have it reflect directly back to the speaker. Just an idea so you don't need to use as much depth. It is actually an idea I've had to make an enclosure that could work flush with a flat screen TV and the enclosure would basically be behind the screen, an L or J shaped enclosure.
Very true, Kindhornman...
Though I have to say I deliberately chose to use a small frontal area. I noticed reading a lot of reviews and opinions of many speakers that in general 2 types of speakers were commended by their imaging abilities. Those with small frontal area and the (very) wide ones. Of coarse exceptions exist and I'm talking about the ones using direct radiators, not horns.
I took that into consideration when building my speakers, it was also the reason to go with the rounded shape.
I haven't tried other shapes but it made sense to me at that time. It worked for me to have the speakers disappear into the sound field, even without FIR processing.
As the experiments with Pano's phase shuffler showed, getting early reflections (Doesn't matter if they are real or introduced with DSP) made the sound "stick" to the speakers.
I'm convinced that we don't hear the reflection as a separate event but do notice the change due to the comb filtering (Causing a sudden change in FR balance) it induces within very short time spans. The first 3 ms being more critical than the relatively later arrivals.
Though I have to say I deliberately chose to use a small frontal area. I noticed reading a lot of reviews and opinions of many speakers that in general 2 types of speakers were commended by their imaging abilities. Those with small frontal area and the (very) wide ones. Of coarse exceptions exist and I'm talking about the ones using direct radiators, not horns.
I took that into consideration when building my speakers, it was also the reason to go with the rounded shape.
I haven't tried other shapes but it made sense to me at that time. It worked for me to have the speakers disappear into the sound field, even without FIR processing.
As the experiments with Pano's phase shuffler showed, getting early reflections (Doesn't matter if they are real or introduced with DSP) made the sound "stick" to the speakers.
I'm convinced that we don't hear the reflection as a separate event but do notice the change due to the comb filtering (Causing a sudden change in FR balance) it induces within very short time spans. The first 3 ms being more critical than the relatively later arrivals.
I've been fascinated by all kinds of designs, and immediately thought of the huge Genesis arrays when you mentioned your proposal.
This would be "the other shape" should I have gone in that direction. The small frontal area had my preference. For multiple reasons.
This would be "the other shape" should I have gone in that direction. The small frontal area had my preference. For multiple reasons.
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Wesayso,
I have to say those Genesis speakers are more than a little imposing on the room, rather overkill I would think. I think I like your much smaller arrays as a practical design.
I have to say those Genesis speakers are more than a little imposing on the room, rather overkill I would think. I think I like your much smaller arrays as a practical design.
.....I love simplicity, though that may not show in my processing chain 😉.
Think your chain looks cool and it can be hard to have simplicity when acoustic environment sometimes is nothing but pure chaos:
.....😛
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To make an impressive line array collection more complete, how about a Steinway Lyngdorf:
They also do WWMTMWW 🙂:
They also do WWMTMWW 🙂:
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Wouldn't it be great if all those designs where located in one building and I could have an hour or so to listen to each one with a few select CDs and Blu-rays and figure out which design elements and compromises to incorporate into an All Aspiring Array project. 😀Of course the comparison would not be complete without the IDS or Wesayso's Two Towers. 😉
I will be playing with some drivers later on tonight, so hopefully I can start posting impressions soon. 😀
I saw this one in the news...and I thought about you, wesayso..
It's a plugin to emulate the sounds of Infected Mushroom.
🙂
Infected Mushroom Pusher ? Sonic Enhancer Plugin | Waves
It's a plugin to emulate the sounds of Infected Mushroom.
🙂
Infected Mushroom Pusher ? Sonic Enhancer Plugin | Waves
I know I've been unusually quiet in here 🙂. But I do steal my listening time every change I get. Due to my Son being home most of the time (holiday) and me working I get less time to experiment, but do use every minute listening.
I even put one of my son's friends (also 10 years old) in the sweet spot for a test. I told him to close his eyes and just listen. He said to me: now I get why you sit there so often with your eyes closed. The music is coming from everywhere, it's all around me.
So next I put on a movie, without turning on the TV, just the sound. The intro to Rango. The moment the aquarium shatters he was really impressed... It's like I was in a glass bowl that exploded! he told us...
On another related topic: Jan Fekkes suggested I try out: Malia & Boris Blank - Claire Cadilac.
I don't regret that! The familiar sound signature of Yello with a beautiful voice on top and excellent placement of the backing vocals! Try that song!
I even put one of my son's friends (also 10 years old) in the sweet spot for a test. I told him to close his eyes and just listen. He said to me: now I get why you sit there so often with your eyes closed. The music is coming from everywhere, it's all around me.
So next I put on a movie, without turning on the TV, just the sound. The intro to Rango. The moment the aquarium shatters he was really impressed... It's like I was in a glass bowl that exploded! he told us...
On another related topic: Jan Fekkes suggested I try out: Malia & Boris Blank - Claire Cadilac.
I don't regret that! The familiar sound signature of Yello with a beautiful voice on top and excellent placement of the backing vocals! Try that song!
Still puzzling about the cross talk cancelation I'm using. And in my head comparing it to the shuffler I tried before it. It's not that I don't like what I got now, just wondering if there could be more. Right now I use a few (P)EQ cuts to even out the sound (!). Somehow I think I should be able to come up with some better arrangement that doesn't need any cuts at all.
There's no doubt in my mind this cross talk problem within Stereo is real. And my current solution, however simple it is, does a better job than not having it. But it is a puzzle that might have an even better answer. What can I say, I'm still too curious. I have some ideas I'd like to try, I'll work on those in theory first with REW simulations. If I get something out of it I'll share.
Have I ever been this vague before? 🙂
(!) = right at the frequencies that get boosted by the cross talk cancelation. Like around 1850 Hz and 5500 Hz. I bet I can change that with a phase deviation like the shuffler did, but this time using a phase shift between the direct sound and the cancelation. There, that's less mysterious.
There's no doubt in my mind this cross talk problem within Stereo is real. And my current solution, however simple it is, does a better job than not having it. But it is a puzzle that might have an even better answer. What can I say, I'm still too curious. I have some ideas I'd like to try, I'll work on those in theory first with REW simulations. If I get something out of it I'll share.
Have I ever been this vague before? 🙂
(!) = right at the frequencies that get boosted by the cross talk cancelation. Like around 1850 Hz and 5500 Hz. I bet I can change that with a phase deviation like the shuffler did, but this time using a phase shift between the direct sound and the cancelation. There, that's less mysterious.
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Not going to stop anytime soon, are you? 😉
Can you share a short list of test tracks that you are using? Try Clocks / Here Comes The Rain Again by Friend 'n Fellow, a lot of depth in these tracks.
Can you share a short list of test tracks that you are using? Try Clocks / Here Comes The Rain Again by Friend 'n Fellow, a lot of depth in these tracks.
I guess not 😀... way to much fun!
I use a playlist as diverse as I can get it. Let's see if I can name a few,
Anne Bison - September in Montreal, and lately added: Camilio
The Doors - Ghost Song (the bonus track on An American Prayer)
David Bowie - Ashes to Ashes
Infected Mushroom - Demons of Pain, Leopold, Sense of Direction
Selena Gomez - Hands to Myself
Julie Driscol & Brian Auger - a couple of tracks on Streetnoise
Lana Del Ray - Westcoast (radio mix)
Steven Stills - Treetop Flyer
Sensation 2002 - Fairytail
Frank Zappa - Find Her Finer
Arjen Anthony Lucassen - The New Real
Rival Sons - Face of Light
Mika - Relax and Grace Kelly
Pirates of the Caribbean sound track, featuring Rodrigo y Gabriella, various songs
Bob Marley - Is This Love
Pitbull - Fireball
Opeth - Windowpane (among others)
Christina Aguilera - lots of songs on the album Stripped
Kimbra - Plain Gold Ring
and even Bird on a Wire by Jennifer Warnes (still not a fan of her)
Steely Dan Rikki Don't Loose That Number and
Even some audiophile favourites like;
Nils Lofgren - Keith Don't Go (live)
Diana Krall - Temptation
The Eagles - Hotel California (live)
Recently added:
Malia & Boris Blank - Claire Cadillac
Now this isn't an average of my taste in music. It's just some random songs I use for various reasons. Tonality is adjusted by making the above mix sound good. More often than not, everything I play will sound better.
Most songs on the above list get played often, to judge certain parts. I chose a wide mix of songs because I still believe if you get the tonality about right, most music will sound good.
Lots more in a wider list, notice the absence of Led Zeppelin in the above list. I try not to use that for judgement, but it does get airplay 🙂.
When the above list sounds right, then I start to play the music I love. Some of them in the above list, but believe me, I won't become a Selena Gomez fan or anything. It's just an interesting mix.
I use a playlist as diverse as I can get it. Let's see if I can name a few,
Anne Bison - September in Montreal, and lately added: Camilio
The Doors - Ghost Song (the bonus track on An American Prayer)
David Bowie - Ashes to Ashes
Infected Mushroom - Demons of Pain, Leopold, Sense of Direction
Selena Gomez - Hands to Myself
Julie Driscol & Brian Auger - a couple of tracks on Streetnoise
Lana Del Ray - Westcoast (radio mix)
Steven Stills - Treetop Flyer
Sensation 2002 - Fairytail
Frank Zappa - Find Her Finer
Arjen Anthony Lucassen - The New Real
Rival Sons - Face of Light
Mika - Relax and Grace Kelly
Pirates of the Caribbean sound track, featuring Rodrigo y Gabriella, various songs
Bob Marley - Is This Love
Pitbull - Fireball
Opeth - Windowpane (among others)
Christina Aguilera - lots of songs on the album Stripped
Kimbra - Plain Gold Ring
and even Bird on a Wire by Jennifer Warnes (still not a fan of her)
Steely Dan Rikki Don't Loose That Number and
Even some audiophile favourites like;
Nils Lofgren - Keith Don't Go (live)
Diana Krall - Temptation
The Eagles - Hotel California (live)
Recently added:
Malia & Boris Blank - Claire Cadillac
Now this isn't an average of my taste in music. It's just some random songs I use for various reasons. Tonality is adjusted by making the above mix sound good. More often than not, everything I play will sound better.
Most songs on the above list get played often, to judge certain parts. I chose a wide mix of songs because I still believe if you get the tonality about right, most music will sound good.
Lots more in a wider list, notice the absence of Led Zeppelin in the above list. I try not to use that for judgement, but it does get airplay 🙂.
When the above list sounds right, then I start to play the music I love. Some of them in the above list, but believe me, I won't become a Selena Gomez fan or anything. It's just an interesting mix.
Wesayso,
I am curious - how does some old school thrash sound on your system - say Metallica, Megadeth, or Slayer? If you have any tracks in your catalog, please give it a spin... and do tell... 😀
Some suggestions:
Megadeth: Tornado of Souls
Metallica: Welcome Home (Sanitarium)
Slayer: Mandatory Suicide
I am curious - how does some old school thrash sound on your system - say Metallica, Megadeth, or Slayer? If you have any tracks in your catalog, please give it a spin... and do tell... 😀
Some suggestions:
Megadeth: Tornado of Souls
Metallica: Welcome Home (Sanitarium)
Slayer: Mandatory Suicide
I haven't tried any on your list...
The closest I have in my own library is:
Devin Townsend Project - Awake
Rammstein - Various albums with songs like Engel, Du Hast etc...
System of a Down - Various albums
The only Metalica song I have on file is Nothing Else Matters 😛 (*)
But the above list does well, not as entertaining as a recording as:
Russian Circles - Station or Empros
I look for "doctored" recordings, like Bowie and Selena to do good, but personally love the more "live feel" recordings like Russian Circles have (among many others). Most 70's stuff and older are in that genre of "live feel" music. But it's clear that Tony Visconti experimented a lot with the tape equipment to get fun imaging stuff happening in the Bowie records.
I call them "doctored" as they play with staging and imaging as an entertainment feature, the disk by Christina Aguilera is a good example of that as well. But the albums by Bob Marley and bands like Rival Sons are more of a "live like" recording.
Recordings like the ones from Anne Bison and Jennifer Warnes are (very) well done studio stuff.
Infected Mushroom is way out there, I love what they do, but that's definitely a "doctored" sound.
I did try classical music, but the closest thing to that which I can really appreciate would be old movie soundtracks. Like the ones from John Barry and Ennio Morricone and their more modern counterparts like Hans Zimmer...
Most of the time my favourite instrument has been the guitar, and while I like players like Paco de Lucia and Al di Meola I tend to favour Jimmi Page, Jeff Beck, Steve Vai, Van Halen, Stevie Ray Vaughn, even Clapton's early years like Cream etc...
(*) I might have more on CD somewhere as I haven't even started to import all of it yet. On the attic of my home are another 400+ vinyl records that I miss playing dearly 😉. I don't have them all on CD unfortunately.
The closest I have in my own library is:
Devin Townsend Project - Awake
Rammstein - Various albums with songs like Engel, Du Hast etc...
System of a Down - Various albums
The only Metalica song I have on file is Nothing Else Matters 😛 (*)
But the above list does well, not as entertaining as a recording as:
Russian Circles - Station or Empros
I look for "doctored" recordings, like Bowie and Selena to do good, but personally love the more "live feel" recordings like Russian Circles have (among many others). Most 70's stuff and older are in that genre of "live feel" music. But it's clear that Tony Visconti experimented a lot with the tape equipment to get fun imaging stuff happening in the Bowie records.
I call them "doctored" as they play with staging and imaging as an entertainment feature, the disk by Christina Aguilera is a good example of that as well. But the albums by Bob Marley and bands like Rival Sons are more of a "live like" recording.
Recordings like the ones from Anne Bison and Jennifer Warnes are (very) well done studio stuff.
Infected Mushroom is way out there, I love what they do, but that's definitely a "doctored" sound.
I did try classical music, but the closest thing to that which I can really appreciate would be old movie soundtracks. Like the ones from John Barry and Ennio Morricone and their more modern counterparts like Hans Zimmer...
Most of the time my favourite instrument has been the guitar, and while I like players like Paco de Lucia and Al di Meola I tend to favour Jimmi Page, Jeff Beck, Steve Vai, Van Halen, Stevie Ray Vaughn, even Clapton's early years like Cream etc...
(*) I might have more on CD somewhere as I haven't even started to import all of it yet. On the attic of my home are another 400+ vinyl records that I miss playing dearly 😉. I don't have them all on CD unfortunately.
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