Congratulation on your nice turntable, my little setup sounds more detailed than any cd format, it just kicks *** ;
rong. They prove th
Wrong. They prove that a cd is a superior format. Just because people may prefer blurry black and white photos doesnt mean there more accurate. If you think a format with 1% THD, 50db S/N, freq modulation (wow and flutter), rumble, microphony, clicks and pops, and these all change depending on how old the cutting head is, how many times the stampers been used, the type of plastic they use, how many times you've played the record, how old your stylus is, if the song is at the begining or end of the side, and probably a few reasons I've missed, is better than CD, prove it. Blind listening only tells us what people prefer, not what's better as your picture example shows.
Wrong. They prove that a cd is a superior format. Just because people may prefer blurry black and white photos doesnt mean there more accurate. If you think a format with 1% THD, 50db S/N, freq modulation (wow and flutter), rumble, microphony, clicks and pops, and these all change depending on how old the cutting head is, how many times the stampers been used, the type of plastic they use, how many times you've played the record, how old your stylus is, if the song is at the begining or end of the side, and probably a few reasons I've missed, is better than CD, prove it. Blind listening only tells us what people prefer, not what's better as your picture example shows.
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Half my vinyl sounds great, and was carefully selected, the worst of which is a new pressing collection of Nirvana, Boston, and many pop I forgot the names, which because the so poor quality of sound in the original masters is apparent as never before that listening on vinyl doesn't add anything better than the CD I had from back I was a kid.
However on my cd collection, I can only pick on 500 cds a dozen which have excellent sound qualities.
Hey I am happy for you that your class D has no harmonic distortion! enjoy your no detail sound. thank you
Sorry. I was under the impression you were one of the few people here interested in learning more.
Jan
Jan,
I am amazed by this counter intuitive statement.
Do you know of any literature describing this sort of effect.
Hans
No not off hand I need to look it up.
But you can easily check it. Just put on a 1kHz note from the generator and add another tone from another generator at 2kHz but at 1/100 to 1/20 of the original.
The result sounds more, how shall I say, more 'fresh', more transparent, and not as distorted, until you increase the harmonic level. Add another at 3kHz and it even more evident. I did this decades ago, never went beyond 3rd however.
Jan
But you can easily check it. Just put on a 1kHz note from the generator and add another tone from another generator at 2kHz but at 1/100 to 1/20 of the original.
The result sounds more, how shall I say, more 'fresh', more transparent, and not as distorted, until you increase the harmonic level. Add another at 3kHz and it even more evident. I did this decades ago, never went beyond 3rd however.
Jan
Not at all satisfied with the results I booked yesterday (see posting 971 & 977) with the Stereoplay CD recorded directly from LP, I added a fourth option to compare to.
This was a 24/192 A/D converter placed directly behind my phono preamp, its digital signal directly fed to a 24/192 D/A converter.
The response of the 24 bits A/D converter, equiped with a AKM5386 converter, is flat to just below 96Khz.
so what I compared was:
1) LP - Phono Preamp - Amp
2) LP - Phono Preamp - A/D 24/192 - D/A 24/192- Amp
3) Jriver - Stereoplay CD direct from LP - D/A 16/44.1 - Amp
4) Jriver - Original CD - D/A 16/44.1 - Amp
Surprisingly, the Stereoplay CD 3) sounded almost identical to 2) my own non downsampled digitized version , although I slightly preferred 2).
Of the three digital versions I still preferred the original CD 4)
But what I liked most of all was the original LP 1), so obviously somewhere in the process of digitizing and going back to analog something changes.
Theories that LP's are preferred because of out of phase LF (rumble) noise can be rejected since 1) and 2) should be identical in that respect.
And also background noise coming from the LP should be identical between 1) and 2) and can be discarded as the reason.
Frequency response of the A/D converter with 96Khz should also be more than enough to capture the whole content of the LP's frequency band.
The only thing that I can think of, is that all the filtering in the analog and in the digital domain to prevent aliasing is hurting the signal.
An analogue impuls driven through an A/D and D/A converter, comes out as we know with a lot of ringing before and after the reproduced pulse because of the steepness of the filters causing this ringing.
It was revealing to come to these results and I'm even more convinced of the potential sound quality of an LP as I was before.
Hans
This was a 24/192 A/D converter placed directly behind my phono preamp, its digital signal directly fed to a 24/192 D/A converter.
The response of the 24 bits A/D converter, equiped with a AKM5386 converter, is flat to just below 96Khz.
so what I compared was:
1) LP - Phono Preamp - Amp
2) LP - Phono Preamp - A/D 24/192 - D/A 24/192- Amp
3) Jriver - Stereoplay CD direct from LP - D/A 16/44.1 - Amp
4) Jriver - Original CD - D/A 16/44.1 - Amp
Surprisingly, the Stereoplay CD 3) sounded almost identical to 2) my own non downsampled digitized version , although I slightly preferred 2).
Of the three digital versions I still preferred the original CD 4)
But what I liked most of all was the original LP 1), so obviously somewhere in the process of digitizing and going back to analog something changes.
Theories that LP's are preferred because of out of phase LF (rumble) noise can be rejected since 1) and 2) should be identical in that respect.
And also background noise coming from the LP should be identical between 1) and 2) and can be discarded as the reason.
Frequency response of the A/D converter with 96Khz should also be more than enough to capture the whole content of the LP's frequency band.
The only thing that I can think of, is that all the filtering in the analog and in the digital domain to prevent aliasing is hurting the signal.
An analogue impuls driven through an A/D and D/A converter, comes out as we know with a lot of ringing before and after the reproduced pulse because of the steepness of the filters causing this ringing.
It was revealing to come to these results and I'm even more convinced of the potential sound quality of an LP as I was before.
Hans
Does it matter that LP is an inferior source to CD. if you enjoy the music from LP CD or stored on disc why worry... I cant understand this infatuation within the hobby to try and prove something is superior even thought it isn't and the FACTs prove that it isn't... I just sit back and enjoy listening to my LPs and stored music and don't really care what the source is as long as I have the music... For me LPs have lots of memories, even now digging out LPs from my teens brings back many fond memories, but even though I enjoy the whole ritual of playing a record I don't go all mental trying to prove it is superior to more modern methods of music storage and retrieval... Digital.
In the 1982 at Audioreview magazine in Italy the firsts cd players came in lab to test the tech. specs with the firsts CD test.
At that time my friends who are involved on tests found a good results with test equipments. But something strange on sound, all of us had a vinyl background and the difference was great as pleasure to listen for LP.
Until a technical director connect in parallel to the output of CD player to preamp a turntable with a pink noise (with a riaa preamp of course), after a regulation of the level all of us found a better sound quite similar to vinyl.
Today the Dac are very sofisticated and the high resolution files helps the sound quality but I have found ( and I have made one) some Dac with tube output with a soft roll off around 20Khz with a great sound.
Now we test some dac with DSD files and, in this case, the sound seems to be better.
Walter
At that time my friends who are involved on tests found a good results with test equipments. But something strange on sound, all of us had a vinyl background and the difference was great as pleasure to listen for LP.
Until a technical director connect in parallel to the output of CD player to preamp a turntable with a pink noise (with a riaa preamp of course), after a regulation of the level all of us found a better sound quite similar to vinyl.
Today the Dac are very sofisticated and the high resolution files helps the sound quality but I have found ( and I have made one) some Dac with tube output with a soft roll off around 20Khz with a great sound.
Now we test some dac with DSD files and, in this case, the sound seems to be better.
Walter
DUH! I enjoy a CD which has no distorion, no bass, no sound extention, no soundstage.
However I enjoy more my crappy vinyl with tons of distortion extension, able to pick up more instruments details etc.
Believe me or not I can barely stand the distortion of the last inch of a vinyl groove, still like it for what it does well
Perhaps he means no rumble, no warps, so no out of phase low frequencies to give a completely false but pleasant sense of space?marce said:
Just to elaborate on that, a genuine stereo signal will have 'space' information in the low frequencies - I believe it has been shown that people can estimate the size of the space they are in while blindfolded from the LF noise which is always present. LP mixes LF to mono, thus removing some of the information, but then inserts false information - the listener may hear a different space to that of the original recording, but at least he still hears space. CD should leave the information intact, but these days most CD (and LP!) does not have a genuine stereo signal but merely pan-potted pseudostereo. Hence a CD may have no 'space' information at all.
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It does seem that even in the light of all the evidence some will hold on to misguided beliefs, maybe we should get rid of the internal combustion engine and go back to steam...
of course we should, they were better engine, less costly to maintain, safer to operate
And coal is everywhere in 1000 times larger quantity than costly dangerous liquid fuels such as mazout
You would not believe what kind of efficient powerful inox steel steam engine we can build nowadays
The RIAA preamplifier stage increases level of the low frequencies. So fundamentals & harmonics would be raised to. Isn't it ? I guess the anti phase noise which is the topic of this thread would also increase. So the devinylser would be interesting to have. Just guessing as I am not sure.
Regards.
Regards.
We don't actually know that, do we? And that's what I've been going on about. Douglas has gone on his merry way to build, publish and now lecture, but we don't really know much about the effect. The tests we did here were inconclusive.
But no one seems interested in that. It's either plow ahead without much data or continue the tired old debates about why vinyl sounds so good, or not.
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