ClaveFremen; :eek: Those costs a little fortune... I don't know if I'm ready to spend so much on a cap and anyway not before upgrading all the rest.[/QUOTE said:
And I'm afraid I can't contribute to this part of discussion..
I have that plain wire in my system(s) since ~~forever.. in place of C13.
I have that plain wire in my system(s) since ~~forever.. in place of C13.
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It's just a personal opinion, but I consider you to be a gambling man. I have listened for a short time without an input cap, mainly to listen for coloration in the way Dario has, but I always checked the output of my preamp or DAC before removing the cap to make sure it had very low DC.
I once had a DAC (commercial product, not DIY) that had been fine, but over time, something failed and DC out grew to almost 7 Volts. Happily, my FE's were fine because of the protection of C13. I only knew something was wrong because it started making a 'PoP' on turn off.
Jac
Mundorf Supreme Vs CDE 940 (Preliminary)
(PRELIMINARY) It seems confirmed that Mundorf Supreme is a worthwhile improvement over CDE940C.
CDE 940 is an excellent base cap, though, and not a problem at all.
What you can expect:
Note:
The higher harmonic content means less loss, NOT added distortion!
Remember that I compare them to an absolute reference, in this case C13 populated with a piece of copper wire (only for test purposes, C13 MUST be populated to protect your loudpeakers from source/preamp failures).
Attention!
During revision I've determined that CDE940C orientation indicated in a previous post is not the optimal one, if confirmed CDE940C should be mounted reversed.
Supreme orientation is correct.
The upcoming updated build tutorial pic will be correct after final revision.
(PRELIMINARY) It seems confirmed that Mundorf Supreme is a worthwhile improvement over CDE940C.
CDE 940 is an excellent base cap, though, and not a problem at all.
What you can expect:
- Bigger soundstage and contrast
- An higher harmonic content
- Cleaner sound
- More enjoyment
Note:
The higher harmonic content means less loss, NOT added distortion!
Remember that I compare them to an absolute reference, in this case C13 populated with a piece of copper wire (only for test purposes, C13 MUST be populated to protect your loudpeakers from source/preamp failures).
Attention! During revision I've determined that CDE940C orientation indicated in a previous post is not the optimal one, if confirmed CDE940C should be mounted reversed.
Supreme orientation is correct.
The upcoming updated build tutorial pic will be correct after final revision.
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C13 can be replaced by a plain wire but you will loose protection from DC coming from source and/or preamp that, if present, will be amplified by 30 dB, result: fried woofers.
If the output of your preamp (or sources in case of passive preamp) has output caps you can DC couple the my ref using wires in C13, at your own risk, though.
Obviusly the wire is more transparent than any cap at any price, according Penasa, though, C13 also has a role in circuit apart coupling.
Thanks, I would not use the word 'bargain', though, those parts costs a nice amount compared to industrial ones, maybe 'reasonable' is more appropriate 😉
Dario .... I wanted to do a little provocation to only put a cable instead of C13. A test I did because my DAC connected to Myref with half the Lightspeed has an output capacitor.
A DAC with tubes in the I / V section
Honestly with a Supreme little thing you lose and protection seems more 'prudent
Early impressions on Z-Foil in R7
It's late here (1:20 AM) so only low listening volume but... scaring!
Utterly transparent, effortless, an incredible amount of details but never harsh or fatiguing... 🙂
But both R7 and R10 must be Z-Foils, it seems, only one of the two seems somewhat 'wrong'.
Maybe I fell asleep and I'm dreaming... 😉
It's late here (1:20 AM) so only low listening volume but... scaring!
Utterly transparent, effortless, an incredible amount of details but never harsh or fatiguing... 🙂
But both R7 and R10 must be Z-Foils, it seems, only one of the two seems somewhat 'wrong'.
Maybe I fell asleep and I'm dreaming... 😉
First the caveat. My listening of these caps is on an earlier version of FE than you guys are building, so it may not be exactly the same difference.
I would add that the Supreme gives a more dynamic sound than the 940. I mean that the quiet sections are quieter, so the difference in sound level seems stronger with the Supreme. I find that makes the music more engaging.
Jac
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Nothinng different... contrast, cleaner sound, more enjoyment
Maybe I should have used the word engaging instead of enjoyment 🙄
I've heard enough Mundorf caps (including at C13) to know that they're more colored than the Jupiter caps. I don't compare to a straight wire, but to my memory of real acoustic music. I agree they are very expensive, and not every system or taste will justify the expense. For most builders, Mundorf might be the best option. They're fine caps, and I know you did a lot of experimenting before you settled on them. But don't kid yourself about hearing all the amp has to offer with those metalized caps.
However, spending lots of money on resistors instead of better caps is NOT the most cost-efficient way to improve this, or any other, amplifier. That doesn't mean better resistors aren't important (Do you remember my first reports about "better" PRP resistors in the original MyRef design? That was seven years ago! We've come a long way.), but just that better caps are MORE important. Z-foil makes a wonderfully transparent resistive element, but tin/aluminum/copper foil makes a much better capacitor.
Peace,
Tom E
C13 is the DC blocking capacitor on the input.
The sch shows 1uF into 100k.
That gives an F-3dB = 1.6Hz
The audio band goes down to roughly 20Hz.
C13 filtering is more than a decade below the wanted audio band.
Any plastic film cap here will pass ALL of the Audio band.
One can adopt polypropylene instead of polyester, but that will not give any reduction in audio distortion. There will be no added audio distortion, because there is no audio filtering.
The sch shows 1uF into 100k.
That gives an F-3dB = 1.6Hz
The audio band goes down to roughly 20Hz.
C13 filtering is more than a decade below the wanted audio band.
Any plastic film cap here will pass ALL of the Audio band.
One can adopt polypropylene instead of polyester, but that will not give any reduction in audio distortion. There will be no added audio distortion, because there is no audio filtering.
This is your fault, IMHO. In this way you try to balance all the colorations of your entire chain, from source material to room (!) to achieve a realistic presentation.
It has nothing to do to amp transparency.
I did the comparison to plain wire even yesterday and did it hundreds of time.
If we talk about capacitors transparency you can't have a much better cap, difference will be marginal.
Mundorf Supreme coloration is neglegible, I don't know for the 'oily' variants.
Jupiters may well be even more transparent but that last bit doesn't fit the bill, IMHO.
It depends on the particular cap, resistor and position in circuit.
Mundorf Supreme and also CDE 940C (!) let already pass more signal than what the rest of passives chain can handle transparently, otherwise you wouldn't hear any improvement replacing following resitors and capacitors.
But in fact you will.
I've made too much comparisons with absolute references (shorted C13, omitted C12, shorted R11) and I know very well how the amp would sound without passives coloration and which parts have more loss, Tom, really, you're on wrong path.
Jac,
Yes, You are right I'm reckless. Seriously. So I do not suggest to anyone to follow.
But.
The Myref amps have this invaluable feature called DC speaker protection.
(list quickly the competition products that also include it for FREE) (or simply, just include it!!)
I'm quite familiar with it's operation..
And it works 100 % and at least for me, guarantees the health of my speakers.
Also with age, I'm proceeding ahead with the right balance:
The smallest power amp, just sufficient for your general use --- the longer periods between trips to the speakershop.. For me it's 15years on for now, still counting. Before it was different.. event with 'proper' protection measures.. Ohh, that golden youth. And parties.
Then, Dario, no, you don't get the input DC offset amplified, at least until You keep C9 in place. So that means 100mV offset in, 100mV offset on the speakers. A lot for the input unbalance, not that much for the speakers.
But I track my offsets. How about 1mV in output? It's called DC servo..
Then, my setup for long years was a current dac into an I/V resistor into a grid, then 130V DC offset in output..
So that Mundorf Supreme silver gold had taken place at the preamp output, not in the poweramp input...
Ciao, George
Yes, You are right I'm reckless. Seriously. So I do not suggest to anyone to follow.
But.
The Myref amps have this invaluable feature called DC speaker protection.
(list quickly the competition products that also include it for FREE) (or simply, just include it!!)
I'm quite familiar with it's operation..
And it works 100 % and at least for me, guarantees the health of my speakers.
Also with age, I'm proceeding ahead with the right balance:
The smallest power amp, just sufficient for your general use --- the longer periods between trips to the speakershop.. For me it's 15years on for now, still counting. Before it was different.. event with 'proper' protection measures.. Ohh, that golden youth. And parties.
Then, Dario, no, you don't get the input DC offset amplified, at least until You keep C9 in place. So that means 100mV offset in, 100mV offset on the speakers. A lot for the input unbalance, not that much for the speakers.
But I track my offsets. How about 1mV in output? It's called DC servo..
Then, my setup for long years was a current dac into an I/V resistor into a grid, then 130V DC offset in output..
So that Mundorf Supreme silver gold had taken place at the preamp output, not in the poweramp input...
Ciao, George
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Yes, Andrew, we know that's how it works. Thank you for explaining it yet again. But that's not how it sounds. Probably, you will never understand the difference. Heck, you and many others will never even acknowledge a difference exists, and that's too bad. To you it is incomprehensible that something can sound different when it measures the same. I wish I could be that insensitive to the subtleties of sound and rationalize everything from instrument readings.
Peace,
Tom E
Because I'm not following in your footsteps? There is more than one path, and if they meet the same goal then neither is wrong. Pardon me for claiming there is a cap that is better than the precious Mundorf. I wrote that it is perfectly adequate for most builders. For some it is not. Get over it.
For the record, I don't like the way this amp sounds with a jumper for C13. At one time, you claimed the same exact thing. Now you're saying that a jumper is a reference and the only valid test? Does Mauro also claim that?
Some others claim to prefer the sound of a jumper, or have they just convinced themselves that no cap must be better? After experimenting, I find it difficult to believe, but that's the way audio works. And I really don't need the cap there because I have a passive TVC upstream so zero DC @ amp input.
Peace,
Tom E
Well, I'm so n00b that I can't undestand much this talking so... I'm posing another question.
Mundorf AGs on C201 and C101 cost 4 x £10.67 (a little less than 55€) and are an easy upgrade I can pospone after Amtrans, C13 upgrade and maybe ZFoils. What do you think?
Btw... I'm using a pair of ClarityCap ESA in my DCB1. Anyone tried those? I'm looking at HFC catalogue... just wondering.
Mundorf AGs on C201 and C101 cost 4 x £10.67 (a little less than 55€) and are an easy upgrade I can pospone after Amtrans, C13 upgrade and maybe ZFoils. What do you think?
Btw... I'm using a pair of ClarityCap ESA in my DCB1. Anyone tried those? I'm looking at HFC catalogue... just wondering.
Yes, those AGs are pricey. Per comparison's that Bob made a while ago, they improve the bass, but the standard FE is pretty good for bass. Just my opinion, but C13 is the most effective. The ZFoil's sound like they are also useful. So waiting on the AGs sounds quite reasonable.
As for the Clarity ESA, I assume you are referring to them in C13? I don't have direct experience with the ESA. Tony Gee from the humblehomemadehifi cap test suggests that the ESA rates at 8.5 and the Supreme at 10.
In the end, it's your amp. Take input from others and do what you like. 🙂
Jac
Absolutely not, everyone is obviously free to find his way.
But your way has nothing to do with amp's transparency your're 'equalizing' your whole setup to achieve what you feel like as transparent.
Probably we're simply pursuing different goals.
You've gone far beyond... you said that the Mundorf will ruin the sound at a level that makes worthless replacing other parts.
This is simply false and misleading.
At that time the BOM was way more colored, Mauro simply say, like Andrew, that any decent film cap will not contribute to sound.
What I'm saying is that an objective reference is needed to make any meaningfull comparison and the plain wire is the best one we have.
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