This is a point I've been meaning to ask about. Looking at the ScanSpeak Illuminator tweeters I originally mentioned, there's two versions of their Be tweeter -- one in a small aluminum chamber (D3004/6040-10), and one with a faceplate and an AirCirc motor (D3004/6640-00). The smaller unit is hundreds of dollars cheaper, and is much smaller. Which raises two questions:
1) Is there any significant difference in sound/quality?
2) Unless there is a significant difference, I'm assuming that the small one is actually better for my application because it allows me to get the center closer to the midrange center?
Which are both ways of saying, which would be better for my situation?
I don't think you have to worry about it, because your "default audio out" to be set to SPDIF or internal digital bus, so you will not hear anything unless you open EQ host. Yes, it is complicated, but once it is set up, it's simple, just open DAW session. On Mac, there is an app called AudioHijack that would make everything much simpler (Never tried), and I think there is equivalent apps for PC. Anyway, I think you may need some kind of tweeter protection (DC protection, capacitor) with active crossover set up to avoid accident.
hmm questions on driver choices start to emerge
SQ is very subjective and it ultimately depends on the implementation and SPL levels. Small center to center gives more leeway on crossover choices but probably doesn't matter for a small 3way.The most expensive choice is the more "ultimate" E.g. sighted listening test sessions for audiophiles.
I would never trust a expensive driver controlled by a PC or active filter w/o protection! the most simple and effective way is a DC block at the amp. output. Anybody who tells you different has not done it and /or has reliability issues on turn on /off .
Consider small horn loaded tweeters with a series protection cap (1st order HP filter)> this tends to flatten data sheet response near the low end of the band> so you get a twofer!
something like a D21 gets very loud and remains linear > another factor besides boosted LF sensitivities is its wider dispersion at the high end of the band. it's excellent!
Otherwise look at the interesting documention provided by DIYers working on horn loaded domes. There's reasons for the ubiquitous resurgence of horn loaded designs in High End monitors!
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http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/D3004-604010.htm
Another tweeter worth considering:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Test-SS-R662000vs602010.htm
Both small faceplate tweeters work in the SEOS 8 waveguide if you are looking to go the waveguide route.
More expensive unit will get you some dB more SPL
and that's it. That is what its more powerful motor does.
The SQ depends on your XO filter and overall integration.
waveguides for dome tweeter
IMO waveguide is just a subset of horns
Remember guys Troels is a pretty good DIY guy but ultimately ( there's that word again) he's an outside salesman for Jantzen Audio. Read his blog on Audax dome tweeter mated to waveguides for his 1st HE (high sensitivity ) 2way designs.
IMO waveguide is just a subset of horns
Remember guys Troels is a pretty good DIY guy but ultimately ( there's that word again) he's an outside salesman for Jantzen Audio. Read his blog on Audax dome tweeter mated to waveguides for his 1st HE (high sensitivity ) 2way designs.
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This has been a good exercise in exploring drivers! But ultimately I find myself coming close to the ScanSpeak combination I started with, but changing the woofer:
Tweeter - D3004/6040-10
Mid - 12MU/4731T-00
Woofer - 22W/4851T
The 22W seems like it would be a better match in terms of sensitivity than the illuminator woofer, plus it has considerably higher excursion for when I'm cranking it up to play guitar. I can build a cab just under 1.4 ft3 and get pretty decent bass extension before crossing over to the sub. Any disadvantages to this woofer or this combo?
There are a lot of good suggestions on this thread, but I like the fact that the D3004 is pretty directional in the upper octave, which will help reduce reflections off the desk.
As for electronics, I've gone back and forth a few times, but I'm currently leaning toward a MiniDSP 4x10 with external amps (something like the Outlaw Audio 7125). I really appreciate the suggestions on a PC-based active crossover. However, that's a pretty big step from where my experience has been, and I don't want to bite off more than I can chew. One step at a time.
I really appreciate everyone's suggestions so far. Feel free to chime in with any other thoughts, ideas, or critiques.
Thanks!
Tweeter - D3004/6040-10
Mid - 12MU/4731T-00
Woofer - 22W/4851T
The 22W seems like it would be a better match in terms of sensitivity than the illuminator woofer, plus it has considerably higher excursion for when I'm cranking it up to play guitar. I can build a cab just under 1.4 ft3 and get pretty decent bass extension before crossing over to the sub. Any disadvantages to this woofer or this combo?
There are a lot of good suggestions on this thread, but I like the fact that the D3004 is pretty directional in the upper octave, which will help reduce reflections off the desk.
As for electronics, I've gone back and forth a few times, but I'm currently leaning toward a MiniDSP 4x10 with external amps (something like the Outlaw Audio 7125). I really appreciate the suggestions on a PC-based active crossover. However, that's a pretty big step from where my experience has been, and I don't want to bite off more than I can chew. One step at a time.
I really appreciate everyone's suggestions so far. Feel free to chime in with any other thoughts, ideas, or critiques.
Thanks!
+2dB is good for cranking it up to play guitar.
Higher excursion? Not sure what you mean - linear excursion is stated as 9mm for either driver.
The 22W has slightly more surface area, so will have more displacement, which is good for loud guitar.
The 22W has a Fs of 21Hz, which seems more suitable for a stand alone speaker than for something to be used with a sub.
The FAITAL PRO 8PR200 I referenced earlier (post 29) has the same displacement as the 22W. It appears to have a smoother response and it has a whopping +6dB efficiency, due to a higher Fs. To me, that makes it look like a better prospect, when used with a sub.*
Directional? This seems to be a mistake. The D3004 spec claims "outstanding off-axis dispersion", which is the opposite of directional. The 1st off-axis trace remains within 2dB of the on-axis until ~15kHz. Perhaps you didn't realise that the Scan Speak graphs go to 40kHz? You may have been looking at the 20-40kHz range.
Again, referring back to post 29, after you mentioned ribbons / a desire for narrow vertical dispersion, I suggested a couple of drivers that might be suitable. Compare the spec sheet of the Morel CAT 378 with the D3004. The Morel is more directional: the off-axis traces are a lot more neatly spread, and they diverge at a much lower frequency. That's the kind of spec you are looking for, if you want something "pretty directional".
I like keeping the learning curve simple 🙂
You could always sell or re-purpose the MiniDSP 4x10 if you do change up later.
That Outlaw Audio 7125 looks really good for your goals - since you wanted the electronics simple and tidy.
I'd opt for 4*50watts and a sub amp, but that's how I roll (and my electronics are more of a spaghetti nightmare than I think you'd prefer).
*I could measure and post the bigger 12FH520, if that's any help. I like seeing non-manufacturer measurements.
thread in disguise Reminds me of another version of what we get so often round here 'so hey everyone I picked these neato "ultimate" drivers, so everyone can clearly see how clever I am. Now won't one of you guys please finish up the details (the crossover)'. or Heck everyone knows the design is 90% determined by selecting a few drivers. DO IT YOURSELF AUDIO sure thing bub> tell us what you done in the past to know these drivers are "ultimate"? yeah clearly this engineer is tipped off by the use of the oft repeated U word.
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The OP is planning on using a DSP. I had just assumed (given: OP uses a modern PC, works with it daily, has a fairly high budget) the use of a mic and some sort of measurement software.
....so I think the crossover should almost build itself.
Out of curiosity: what does 'bub' mean, when used as an insult? I don't think this one gets used outside the USA, and for once, Google is no help.
a cop might use that term to addresses a wayward bystander , means guy, buddy, dude
they use standard text book filters unless you have a math major and like to write script files
sure you could keep cascading filters until you get some flatness on axis, but what does that do to the sound ?
I doubt that or I'm from Missouri
they use standard text book filters unless you have a math major and like to write script files
sure you could keep cascading filters until you get some flatness on axis, but what does that do to the sound ?
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I'm certainly not an expert or an engineer. I have no idea whether these drivers are the ultimate drivers. I did a fair amount of homework before starting the thread, and while that does not make me an expert, I thought it would be courteous to read as much as I could and come to some preliminary conclusions before taking up people's time in this thread.
If the fact that I have so far changed my mind about only one third of the drivers that were on my preliminary list causes you to believe you have been "tipped off" to me showing off my cleverness, you're reading way too much into that. I've certainly done nothing that would warrant you're being rude.
why don't you ask smaller questions that demonstrates you done some design homework. don't just throw the whole shootin match on the table. rude? reminds me of Mr. Hand and Spicoli
in other words begin with smaller pieces then you can reach for the ultimate later on. Build on something by copying or building up your own foundation. Don't expect the experts to flock around your awesome choices.
in other words begin with smaller pieces then you can reach for the ultimate later on. Build on something by copying or building up your own foundation. Don't expect the experts to flock around your awesome choices.
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I use (and like using) a mini DSP. The crossovers are textbook, but that's still better than equivalent textbook passive crossovers - they don't need to adjust for driver resistance varying with frequency, and with voice coil temperature.
For flatness on axis, I can add eq which is entirely separate to the crossovers. Is that what you mean by cascading filters?
Hi
let me ask you Hollowman. How does a speaker designer decide on what filters to use? then how do you verify the goals have been met? what are the goals anyway? filters either in software, analog, or inside the speaker don't they all have to do the same job no matter what or how.
cascading filters is what speaker designers do. For example the raw speaker driver in a box has an acoustic response that can be modeled as a series of filters most likely not a text book one.
let me ask you Hollowman. How does a speaker designer decide on what filters to use? then how do you verify the goals have been met? what are the goals anyway? filters either in software, analog, or inside the speaker don't they all have to do the same job no matter what or how.
cascading filters is what speaker designers do. For example the raw speaker driver in a box has an acoustic response that can be modeled as a series of filters most likely not a text book one.
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You are correct. I was looking at the spec sheet for the wrong driver. Thank you.
That is a really interesting driver. It kinda looks too good to be true, and makes me wonder what I'm missing. I can't find a distortion graph for it, so maybe there's some issue there? If not, why isn't everyone using this driver for their 8" applications? I have read that pro audio drivers sometimes don't sound as good at lower volumes; is that true?
I'm certainly reading it differently than you do, so I'm probably reading it wrong. I'm looking at the SPL chart here. https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...or-d3004/6040-10-beryllium-dome-tweeter-each/ It does go up to 40kHz. However, the way I read it is that the 30 degree off-axis response (green line) at 15kHz is 5-6db down from the on-axis response, and the 60 degree response (red line) at 15kHz is 13db down. Am I not reading this correctly? That part of the chart looks very similar to the Morel driver you suggested. But maybe I'm reading it wrong.
The Morel seems to have a pretty steep drop after about 15kHz with the on-axis response. I may be old enough not to notice that anyway.
Thanks so much for all you suggestions and insights. These are some interesting drivers to look at. The Morel and Faital are reasonably priced enough it might be worth picking some up just to experiment with.
What I expected in this thread is exactly what I have received -- dozens of very helpful suggestions and insights from people who know more about this than I do. (Some of them even came from you.) So, in response to your question, "why didn't you ask different kinds of questions," the answer is, "because the questions I asked worked perfectly well." Much thanks to all who answered them (including you).
Hollowboy, I've sorted out the confusion on the D3004. I think you are looking at the non-Be version, which has excellent off-axis dispersion. The Beryllium version has the off-axis characteristics more similar to the Morel you referenced.
For that budget I would probably investigate Genelecs or Adams, preferably even 2nd hand to get a high grade model.
Are you confident that your own design would do as good as an Adam?
Are you confident that your own design would do as good as an Adam?
Talaerts, that is a great question!
A couple months ago, my wife ran the LA marathon. It was a $250 entry fee or something like that. When she signed up, I asked her whether it wouldn't be cheaper to take a cab 26 miles, and it would get her there faster. She laughed. Because it was a joke. In fact, it's a joke pretty much everyone tells in marathons. So it's not really that funny. Maybe she was just laughing to be nice. . . .
Anyway, the point of all this is not simply to acquire nice monitors. (If that's all I wanted, then I would up my budget and buy Focal SM9s.) The point is to have a fun project.
With all that said, the answer to your question is "yes." This is not my first rodeo. I am not an electrical engineer or an expert, and I've been open (and hopefully humble) about welcoming everyone's thoughts. But I have built enough speakers that I can confidently say "these will come out better than what I could buy for a similar budget." All of my other ones have. I wouldn't spent $1800 on drivers for this project if I were a novice.
But I do appreciate your question.
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