An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Yeah. About that.
If you didn't post incorrect information there would be no need to correct it.
If you were able to have a technical discussion about the issues we could clear all this up. I've provided volumes of technical information for you and you recently indicated that you didn't read any of it.
Let's clear these issues up. Let's have an actual technical discussion. I can show you how sealed and ported boxes work, I can tell you a bit about resonances and we can get on the same page with respect to simulators, what they do, what they don't do, and how to interpret the results.
You won't directly address me anymore at all but you constantly leave these little passive aggressive pokes. You comment on me being a "sad fellow" but I've given you nothing but reams of technical information, while you've given me nothing but these little pokes. Let's talk in a technical manner, clear up some of your misconceptions about how things work, and there won't be any more need to correct your incorrect posts.
Had to give it a try. 🙂
Hi Y'all,
First time ever in Audacity, this is what I get:
File-Import-Raw Data
Encoding: Unsigned 8-bit PCM
Byte order: Little endian
Channels: 1 Channel (Mono)
Start offset: 0 bytes
Amount to import 100%
Sample rate: 44100 Hz
Analyze-Plot Spectrum-Too much audio was selected. Only the first 237.8 seconds of audio will be analyzed.-OK-see attached screen print.
If ever there was a need for a HP filter, this is it. I hope JAG, or some of the experienced users can figure this mess out.
Regards,
Hi Y'all,
First time ever in Audacity, this is what I get:
File-Import-Raw Data
Encoding: Unsigned 8-bit PCM
Byte order: Little endian
Channels: 1 Channel (Mono)
Start offset: 0 bytes
Amount to import 100%
Sample rate: 44100 Hz
Analyze-Plot Spectrum-Too much audio was selected. Only the first 237.8 seconds of audio will be analyzed.-OK-see attached screen print.
If ever there was a need for a HP filter, this is it. I hope JAG, or some of the experienced users can figure this mess out.
Regards,
Attachments
Nice! We're moving in the right direction.
Perhaps the question is how many seconds does Artisan provide. Even 16 Hz repeats 16 times EACH second. So a few seconds ought to work.
But again, the stuff Artisan recorded is interesting to see and defines lower end (as if we didn't know already). But real question is what Bach On's system does to that signal. I am assuming that Artisan assumes their customers will play the signal with fidelity (not a smart assumption but it looks to me based on talking to their tech that that is how the strategize).
Ben
Sounds like noise, looks like noise, it's noise, not a proper sample. Artisan probably uses a proprietary playback engine to keep their samples from being duplicated and bootlegged. As already has been figured out, improper conversion in this case results in a noise spectrum equivalent to "pink", equal level per octave.
We're moving in the same direction as before, nowhere 😉.
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I'm clueless as well, primarily because I know nothing about audio file encodings. It seems to me that a fast fourier transform would need to be done to the .arnk file to help identify it... and to then decode it for playback? I searched the file for text, looking for clues, but thats as far as I can go since I'm dumb. Anyone else care to try? The "strings.txt" file attached below is the output from this strings command on my linux laptop:
The text found in the first 3 lines of the binary file is:
A quick search for "contre bombarde" led to this page:
http://www.organstops.org/b/Bombarde.html
I got no clue... output from the strings command is attached below.
EDIT: If anyone is interested in viewing the .arnk file in hex or octal let me know and I'll dump it for you.
Code:
~ strings -a 32Bombarde44.arnk > strings.txt
Code:
arnk
32 Contre Bombarde 44 notes by Mark Andersen)
Copyright 2009, Artisan Instruments, Inc.,http://www.organstops.org/b/Bombarde.html
I got no clue... output from the strings command is attached below.
EDIT: If anyone is interested in viewing the .arnk file in hex or octal let me know and I'll dump it for you.
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I think this is the right answer. I quickly tried to play the files with Win Media Player and VLC and they wouldn't play. If they won't play I don't think Audacity will be able to analyze them properly. They need to be in .wav or .mp3 format for Audacity. Otherwise you could probably upload ANY file into Audacity Raw Data and analyze it, even a picture. I haven't tried analyzing a picture in Audacity, but I think we would see the same type of noise if we tried.
That text contains a clue - there's 44 notes in that .arnk file. They may or may not be in sequential order or any kind of order that can even be deciphered.
Anyway, the site that you linked to has a bunch of mp3 samples of organs. I quickly listened to one, it was a bunch of notes, one by one. Audacity CAN analyze mp3's, so if we pick a certain type of pipe and a certain note we should be able to analyze it and see what it's supposed to look like. I have no time right now but maybe later tonight I can grab one and analyze a note or two.
To hear those tones as i did earlier risen upwards in pitch on each burst, import like this. Distorted & lots of noise, but @ least you can somethings going on !
@ tb46
Yeah, that's what i saw & posted before.
@ specd
Hi, yes i also analyised the strings in the file & found those comments too. I was hoping for more info, as i expect you were as well.
@ Bach On
If you can find time to do a direct recording from the audio output of Artisan into your laptop of that file & email it again to just a guy for him to kindly upload again, we might be able to progress, a bit more !
@ tb46
Yeah, that's what i saw & posted before.
@ specd
Hi, yes i also analyised the strings in the file & found those comments too. I was hoping for more info, as i expect you were as well.
@ Bach On
If you can find time to do a direct recording from the audio output of Artisan into your laptop of that file & email it again to just a guy for him to kindly upload again, we might be able to progress, a bit more !
Attachments
My big concern is that huge spike you showed at 4 hz. There shouldn't be anything at all going on at 4 hz and that spike was bigger and wider than anything else in the spectrum. So... even if you can hear SOMETHING I think it's just mostly noise. I think you need the proper codec or proprietary playback mechanism to play it properly. Whatever we are doing so far isn't working.
The .arnk file appears to be a digital instruction file to me. I doubt there are any audio samples in it.
Since you have already established contact with just a guy, Bach On, when you are able to resume testing I suggest you two work together. He is a very capable person and willing to help... and likely the problem solving will proceed much quicker sharing with one, rather than many.
EDIT: I take that digital instruction file opinion back. After listening to their samples and reading more from the Artisan website, it looks like there are audio inside those files afterall. Protected though as weltersys and just a guy mentioned.
Since you have already established contact with just a guy, Bach On, when you are able to resume testing I suggest you two work together. He is a very capable person and willing to help... and likely the problem solving will proceed much quicker sharing with one, rather than many.
EDIT: I take that digital instruction file opinion back. After listening to their samples and reading more from the Artisan website, it looks like there are audio inside those files afterall. Protected though as weltersys and just a guy mentioned.
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So ... just done work a short while ago. As I mentioned I grabbed a quick sample from the organ website specd linked to earlier. The sample was from this page - http://www.organstops.org/_sounds/Reinhardtsgrimma/index.html
And it's this mp3 file located under the Pedal - 16' - Subbass - arpeggio - http://www.organstops.org/_sounds/Reinhardtsgrimma/Ped_Subbass_arp.mp3
(click arpeggio and it plays the mp3 or right click arpeggio and "save link as..."
The mp3 looks like this:
... and if you play it, it clearly sounds like seven distinct notes played in order from low to high.
I analyzed approximately one second of each note (in the image above I've shown the sample of the last note that I analyzed) and the seven notes look like this:
Audacity says these notes are (according to the frequency of the highest peak):
C1
F1
G1
C2
F2
G2
C3
(Some of these notes may be sharp or flat, Audacity doesn't seem to care about that.)
This seems to make sense according to this chart - Frequencies of Musical Notes, A4 = 440 Hz
This chart indicates that some of these notes are indeed sharp but very close to the notes Audacity specifies.
So I don't know if this helps at all or not, but this is what I expect organ notes to look like. A very strong peak at the fundamental and some harmonic spikes. Sometimes there's even sharp spikes below the fundamental but the point here is that it doesn't look anything like noise. You can VERY CLEARLY see some very sharp spikes that rise well above the rest of the spectrum.
And it's this mp3 file located under the Pedal - 16' - Subbass - arpeggio - http://www.organstops.org/_sounds/Reinhardtsgrimma/Ped_Subbass_arp.mp3
(click arpeggio and it plays the mp3 or right click arpeggio and "save link as..."
The mp3 looks like this:
... and if you play it, it clearly sounds like seven distinct notes played in order from low to high.
I analyzed approximately one second of each note (in the image above I've shown the sample of the last note that I analyzed) and the seven notes look like this:
Audacity says these notes are (according to the frequency of the highest peak):
C1
F1
G1
C2
F2
G2
C3
(Some of these notes may be sharp or flat, Audacity doesn't seem to care about that.)
This seems to make sense according to this chart - Frequencies of Musical Notes, A4 = 440 Hz
This chart indicates that some of these notes are indeed sharp but very close to the notes Audacity specifies.
So I don't know if this helps at all or not, but this is what I expect organ notes to look like. A very strong peak at the fundamental and some harmonic spikes. Sometimes there's even sharp spikes below the fundamental but the point here is that it doesn't look anything like noise. You can VERY CLEARLY see some very sharp spikes that rise well above the rest of the spectrum.
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Hi folks,
I had a health issue crop up that shifted me away from the organ and this forum. 42 rounds of radiation later and I seem to be on the road towards recovery - at least in the short-term.
So I'm back and ready to tackle the ongoing issues with the organ.
Mr. Moderator - would it be better to start a new thread, or should we lug this baggage around for perspective?
Bach On
I had a health issue crop up that shifted me away from the organ and this forum. 42 rounds of radiation later and I seem to be on the road towards recovery - at least in the short-term.
So I'm back and ready to tackle the ongoing issues with the organ.
Mr. Moderator - would it be better to start a new thread, or should we lug this baggage around for perspective?
Bach On
Hi Bach On,
Get well. Went through something similar in 2014, and the recovery just takes time.
Regards,
Get well. Went through something similar in 2014, and the recovery just takes time.
Regards,
@ Bach On
Good to see you Bach On here 😉 & you're feeling better too 🙂
Looking forward to hearing how it All pans out, at Last !
Good to see you Bach On here 😉 & you're feeling better too 🙂
Looking forward to hearing how it All pans out, at Last !
Bach Back
Hi there B: Welcome back to the community, missing you and understand your position, Best of health to you. Looking forward to additional posts in continuing an interesting thread. ...regards, Michael
Hi there B: Welcome back to the community, missing you and understand your position, Best of health to you. Looking forward to additional posts in continuing an interesting thread. ...regards, Michael
Thanks for the nice comments. I really am feeling much better. And my PSA numbers are excellent. So....
Let me give a progress report on where our organ project currently stands.
It's now been roughly a year and a half since we added Artisan Digital voices to our small Estey Pipe organ. I came to this forum seeking help in planning the project. And many here were very helpful.
Generally, the organ sounds good. But I'm now back to voicing the electronic ranks to blend well with the pipe voices. And my biggest issue has been the pedal ranks. More about that later.
We now have 5 speakers running off of two amps for the pedals. These include the two homemade speakers I made. One uses two Dayton 15 inch woofers. The other uses an one 18 inch woofer made by Stereo Integrity. The boxes are roughly 11 cubic feet inside. These are being powered by a Behringer INuke 3000.
I also bought a used Allen B 40 from the Florida Flipper. And I'm using two of the spare Allen HC12s for bass. These are being powered by a Crown XLS1500. The B 40 is ported. The HC12s are sealed. I'm letting the HC12s play both low bass and the overtones and partials for the pedal ranks.
I've kept the ported triangular box designed by Oliver. But I've cut the volume down on this one. The box with the two Dayton speakers also had a port. I've recently covered that port. So I now have two ported boxes and three sealed boxes. I think I'd put too much focus and emphasis on trying to get 16 Hertz out of these speakers. I'm now aiming for good sound down to 32 Hertz. The ports made 16 Hertz louder, but they were throwing off the note-by-note balance the system needed. We can discuss the details on that later if anyone cares to.
The Swell digital ranks are being played on two HC12s. They are powered by one Crown XLS1000. I bypass the amp's crossover system. (Despite their name, the HC12s have 15 inch woofers. They have two Peerless mid-range speakers and a dome tweeter. I replaced the surrounds on the woofers and the mid-range drivers. These are older organ speakers that are less efficient than many modern speakers. But they do organ very well since that's what they were designed for.
The Great digital ranks are being played on two other HC12s. They are powered by another XLS1000.
I've experimented using some Allen Point of Presence (PP4s) connected to the Great and Swell Speakers. I'm still trying to make up my mind about them.
I just added two small SVS bookshelf speakers powered by another XLS1000. I've routed the Flute Celeste voices to these. These are softer voices and the SVS speakers play them with good clarity. I have them up-front so they don't have to be turned up too loud. I may also try a couple of the PP4s in addition for playing these ranks. As justaguy predicted, my problem was coming down to a finite amount of space in the speaker chamber.
I generally like the Artisan System. Mark Anderson came up and helped us get them installed. Mark now lives about 100 miles from us. He is serving the Eastern US. We initially had problems getting the Peterson MIDI system to play nice with the Artisan System. The work around was to use the MIDI Thru from the Peterson MIDI board to send signals to the Artisan system. The MIDI Out was sending machine code that was causing the Artisan system to freeze up. The work around solved that problem since MIDI Thru doesn't send machine code.
Audio devices, such as CD players or sound modules are generally divided into two categories. Professional devices output a nominal 1.2 volts. Similar devices for the home market put out closer to 0.6 - 0.8 volts. The reason that is important is that the wattage ratings of amps is based on getting the 1.2 volt input signal strength. Output of an amp is nearly halved if the source is at the lower voltage.
The Artisan, unfortunately, uses the lower signal strength output. So I was needing to turn the amp volume controls much higher than I liked. So I have bought some small stereo inline pre-amps for the Swell, the Great and the Pedal signal inputs to the amps. I know this adds a level of complexity to the input path. It also requires more patch cables.
The Artisan system provides for four stereo pairs. Channels 1 and 2 handle the pedals. 3 and 4 take care of the Swell voices. 5 and 6 handle the Great voices. And I'm using channels 7 and 8 for the Celestes. Using the Artisan Configuration File that loads when the system boots, I can assign any voice to any of these stereo pairs. I can adjust the overall volume of a rank (Trumpet, Flute, etc.) and can even go to the individual note to adjust its volume. That' what I'm doing now.
The Artisan system is a computer that runs Ubuntu. The sampled voices are stored on a disk drive. The samples are loaded in the computer's memory (Random Access Memory - ie, RAM) when the system boots up. I have it connected through a Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS) and it stays on 24/7. The amps are automatically turned on when the organ console is powered up.
Finally, it has become clear that the opening from the Pipe and Speaker chamber is too small for the organ. And it has been that way since the original organ was installed back in 1928. The opening measures about 36 square feet. It needs to be double that size or more. But for a variety of reasons we are stuck with what we have. The small size of this opening is significantly restricting the amount of low sounds that can get out of the chamber and into the Sanctuary area. When the walk in access door to the chamber is open, the low bass sounds are much louder. So I've had to beef up the bass beyond what would normally be needed to get enough sound out in the area where people are listening.
I went and listened to more real pipe organs. The good ones try to have a uniform SPL for each note in a rank. Too many ported cabinets in our organ were emphasizing certain notes - down where the box tuning routed sound to the port. Having two ported and three sealed cabinets seems to be reducing the severity of this issue. The goal is to make the organ sound like an organ. I don't want people to go, "Man! Listen to how loud and how low those speakers can go!".
For this reason, I'm not focusing so much on the 16 Hertz sounds. This is not a home theater system where I'm trying to reproduce earthquake sounds. I'll get some low sounds. But they will "tickle" rather than pound the chest. And I think people in my congregation will like that better. Besides, I was getting sympathetic vibrations from the pipes and the woodwork when the lowest notes were too loud.
I'll stop there for now. Once again, many thanks to the people who gave me helpful input along this journey. I didn't use every idea I received, but it was useful to understand some of the trade-offs that we were making. The people in the church seem pleased. I'm getting closer to being satisfied. But getting the pedals to sound uniform and balancing all the ranks is still a work in progress. And I have not run all those REW measurements people suggesting. I may or may not. What I'm doing now is using my ears.
My two biggest beefs with the organ are the clunky pedalboard we have and the SLOW Peterson MIDI System.
So, that's the way it is on Feb. 4th, 2017.
Bach On
Let me give a progress report on where our organ project currently stands.
It's now been roughly a year and a half since we added Artisan Digital voices to our small Estey Pipe organ. I came to this forum seeking help in planning the project. And many here were very helpful.
Generally, the organ sounds good. But I'm now back to voicing the electronic ranks to blend well with the pipe voices. And my biggest issue has been the pedal ranks. More about that later.
We now have 5 speakers running off of two amps for the pedals. These include the two homemade speakers I made. One uses two Dayton 15 inch woofers. The other uses an one 18 inch woofer made by Stereo Integrity. The boxes are roughly 11 cubic feet inside. These are being powered by a Behringer INuke 3000.
I also bought a used Allen B 40 from the Florida Flipper. And I'm using two of the spare Allen HC12s for bass. These are being powered by a Crown XLS1500. The B 40 is ported. The HC12s are sealed. I'm letting the HC12s play both low bass and the overtones and partials for the pedal ranks.
I've kept the ported triangular box designed by Oliver. But I've cut the volume down on this one. The box with the two Dayton speakers also had a port. I've recently covered that port. So I now have two ported boxes and three sealed boxes. I think I'd put too much focus and emphasis on trying to get 16 Hertz out of these speakers. I'm now aiming for good sound down to 32 Hertz. The ports made 16 Hertz louder, but they were throwing off the note-by-note balance the system needed. We can discuss the details on that later if anyone cares to.
The Swell digital ranks are being played on two HC12s. They are powered by one Crown XLS1000. I bypass the amp's crossover system. (Despite their name, the HC12s have 15 inch woofers. They have two Peerless mid-range speakers and a dome tweeter. I replaced the surrounds on the woofers and the mid-range drivers. These are older organ speakers that are less efficient than many modern speakers. But they do organ very well since that's what they were designed for.
The Great digital ranks are being played on two other HC12s. They are powered by another XLS1000.
I've experimented using some Allen Point of Presence (PP4s) connected to the Great and Swell Speakers. I'm still trying to make up my mind about them.
I just added two small SVS bookshelf speakers powered by another XLS1000. I've routed the Flute Celeste voices to these. These are softer voices and the SVS speakers play them with good clarity. I have them up-front so they don't have to be turned up too loud. I may also try a couple of the PP4s in addition for playing these ranks. As justaguy predicted, my problem was coming down to a finite amount of space in the speaker chamber.
I generally like the Artisan System. Mark Anderson came up and helped us get them installed. Mark now lives about 100 miles from us. He is serving the Eastern US. We initially had problems getting the Peterson MIDI system to play nice with the Artisan System. The work around was to use the MIDI Thru from the Peterson MIDI board to send signals to the Artisan system. The MIDI Out was sending machine code that was causing the Artisan system to freeze up. The work around solved that problem since MIDI Thru doesn't send machine code.
Audio devices, such as CD players or sound modules are generally divided into two categories. Professional devices output a nominal 1.2 volts. Similar devices for the home market put out closer to 0.6 - 0.8 volts. The reason that is important is that the wattage ratings of amps is based on getting the 1.2 volt input signal strength. Output of an amp is nearly halved if the source is at the lower voltage.
The Artisan, unfortunately, uses the lower signal strength output. So I was needing to turn the amp volume controls much higher than I liked. So I have bought some small stereo inline pre-amps for the Swell, the Great and the Pedal signal inputs to the amps. I know this adds a level of complexity to the input path. It also requires more patch cables.
The Artisan system provides for four stereo pairs. Channels 1 and 2 handle the pedals. 3 and 4 take care of the Swell voices. 5 and 6 handle the Great voices. And I'm using channels 7 and 8 for the Celestes. Using the Artisan Configuration File that loads when the system boots, I can assign any voice to any of these stereo pairs. I can adjust the overall volume of a rank (Trumpet, Flute, etc.) and can even go to the individual note to adjust its volume. That' what I'm doing now.
The Artisan system is a computer that runs Ubuntu. The sampled voices are stored on a disk drive. The samples are loaded in the computer's memory (Random Access Memory - ie, RAM) when the system boots up. I have it connected through a Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS) and it stays on 24/7. The amps are automatically turned on when the organ console is powered up.
Finally, it has become clear that the opening from the Pipe and Speaker chamber is too small for the organ. And it has been that way since the original organ was installed back in 1928. The opening measures about 36 square feet. It needs to be double that size or more. But for a variety of reasons we are stuck with what we have. The small size of this opening is significantly restricting the amount of low sounds that can get out of the chamber and into the Sanctuary area. When the walk in access door to the chamber is open, the low bass sounds are much louder. So I've had to beef up the bass beyond what would normally be needed to get enough sound out in the area where people are listening.
I went and listened to more real pipe organs. The good ones try to have a uniform SPL for each note in a rank. Too many ported cabinets in our organ were emphasizing certain notes - down where the box tuning routed sound to the port. Having two ported and three sealed cabinets seems to be reducing the severity of this issue. The goal is to make the organ sound like an organ. I don't want people to go, "Man! Listen to how loud and how low those speakers can go!".
For this reason, I'm not focusing so much on the 16 Hertz sounds. This is not a home theater system where I'm trying to reproduce earthquake sounds. I'll get some low sounds. But they will "tickle" rather than pound the chest. And I think people in my congregation will like that better. Besides, I was getting sympathetic vibrations from the pipes and the woodwork when the lowest notes were too loud.
I'll stop there for now. Once again, many thanks to the people who gave me helpful input along this journey. I didn't use every idea I received, but it was useful to understand some of the trade-offs that we were making. The people in the church seem pleased. I'm getting closer to being satisfied. But getting the pedals to sound uniform and balancing all the ranks is still a work in progress. And I have not run all those REW measurements people suggesting. I may or may not. What I'm doing now is using my ears.
My two biggest beefs with the organ are the clunky pedalboard we have and the SLOW Peterson MIDI System.
So, that's the way it is on Feb. 4th, 2017.
Bach On
Bach On,I'm getting closer to being satisfied. But getting the pedals to sound uniform and balancing all the ranks is still a work in progress. And I have not run all those REW measurements people suggesting. I may or may not. What I'm doing now is using my ears.
My two biggest beefs with the organ are the clunky pedalboard we have and the SLOW Peterson MIDI System.
So, that's the way it is on Feb. 4th, 2017.
Bach On
As an excellent sound engineer and a lousy musician, I can appreciate your frustration with a slow MIDI System. One of my biggest beefs was updating to a "newer better" Mac operating system was that my caused my Logic recording program midi access to stop working entirely- I now have $700+ software instruments I can no longer access, while the free "Garage Band" program with it's limited sounds will work with any midi controller...
Musical instruments are producers, not reproducers of sound, if the aggregate sound is pleasing to you, the musician, arguably the most "picky" person in the church, all is well unless someone complains- and typically complaints revolve around the musical choices made, not hardware/ software/instrument issues unless they are grossly out of whack, way too loud or soft or rattly.
Best of luck with your recovery, I'm now recovering from a subdural hematoma and scratched cornea that was collateral damage on the operating table while the doctors saved my life.
Cheers,
Art
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