2 Way speakers - Suggestions on improvements?

[Sultanen]

Thanks for the explination guys!

About parts and brands.
All resistors - Mundorf M-Resist MOX 10W Mundorf M-Resist MOX - Fidelity Components Shop

Caps Tweeter - Mundorf MCap 400V MCAP400 - Fidelity Components Shop

Cap Woofer - Jantzen Audio Cross Cap(cheaper with 22uF) - Jantzen Audio Cross Cap Capacitors (4) - Fidelity Components Shop

I find it hardest to choose coils.. Id like to use Jantzen Air Cored Wire Coil on the woofer side but they are so damn expensive when you get that big and still want low resistance. Is it a tradeoff to use a Jantzen Audio Iron Coil(with/without disks?) instead?
In tweeter side i will go for Jantzen Air Cored Wire Coil since they are so cheap anyway with low values 🙂

 

[eriksquires]

Your choices look great to me. If you can find Axon or Bennic caps, they are even cheaper than the Jantzen Cross Caps. Great for the woofer. 🙂

I think in your price range you had a number of good options for coils. Again, don't get expensive. I have a feeling when you are done with this project you'll want to do another one from scratch. That's where you'll spend your money on fancy coils. 🙂

So long as you keep your DCR in your woofer coils < 0.4 Ohms you should do great. I thought I found that for the exact same money you could get a Jantzen PCore with like half the DCR. I'd go that route instead, but you can always model it in XSim. Jantzen coils are very close to spec so you can look at your XSim while trying out different DCR values if you want to. If this was an uber build, I'd consider doing all air coil with big guage wires or copper foil. Still, take any of your possible coil choices and compare it to where you started from. When you get a chance, you should model your original crossover (or lack of one) again to see how much different the speakers are going to be. Don't sweat 0.2 Ohms of DCR in a coil. It's a major improvement that you have a coil at all now. 🙂

Also, I really like Steve's (System7) use of wire ties and anchors to hold everything down. That way it's easy to reuse or change a part your not happy with, instead of hot-gluing everything.

Erik

 

[eriksquires]

Also, I should point out that for the Leach Memorial speakers I'm blogging, I'm probably going to end up getting the Jantzen P-Core inductors for the woofers as being very high price/performance parts. Especially important considering the coils and high inductance values I'll be using there.

 

[Sultanen]

Thanks for the tips 🙂 I think i have something going now! Here are the first look at components and FR for these values.

I have listed a bunch of resistors to use for R3 tweeter level adjustment.

Tweeter:

• C2 10uF - Capacitor MKP Mundorf MCap 400 VDC 10 uF - Fidelity Components Shop 7,99eur
• C11 1uF - Capacitor MKP Mundorf MCap 400 VDC 1 uF - Fidelity Components Shop 3,19eur
• R3 2,7ohm - Resistor MOX Mundorf 10W 2.7 Ohm Metal Oxide - Fidelity Components Shop 1,29eur
• 3,9ohm - Resistor MOX Mundorf 10W 3.9 Ohm Metal Oxide - Fidelity Components Shop 1,29eur
• 4,7ohm - Resistor MOX Mundorf 10W 4.7 Ohm Metal Oxide - Fidelity Components Shop 1,29eur
• 5,6ohm - Resistor MOX Mundorf 10W 5.6 Ohm Metal Oxide - Fidelity Components Shop 1,29eur
• 6,8ohm - Resistor MOX Mundorf 10W 6.8 Ohm Metal Oxide - Fidelity Components Shop 1,29eur
• R13 5.6 ohm - Resistor MOX Mundorf 10W 5.6 Ohm Metal Oxide - Fidelity Components Shop 1,29eur
• L3 0,47mH - Jantzen Air Core Coil 0,47mH AWG17 0,25Ohm, 000-0887 - Fidelity Components Shop 4,99eur
• L2 0,56mH - Jantzen Air Core Coil 0,56mH AWG17 0,272Ohm, 000-0888 - Fidelity Components Shop 5,33eur
• L9 0,35mH - Jantzen Air Core Coil 0,35mH AWG17 0,23Ohm, 000-1979 - Fidelity Components Shop 4,39eur

Woofer:

• C4 22uF - Capacitor Jantzen Cross Cap MKP 400 VDC 22 uF - Fidelity Components Shop 4,98eur
• R5 100ohm - Resistor Jantzen MOX RSS 5% 10W 100 Ohm - Fidelity Components Shop 1,03eur
• R4 6,2ohm - Resistor Jantzen MOX RSS 5% 10W 6,2 Ohm - Fidelity Components Shop 1,29eur
• L11 2,6mH - Jantzen Iron Core Coil with Discs 2,600mH AWG13 0,11Ohm, 000-5801 - Fidelity Components Shop 16,94eur
• L6 1,2mH - Jantzen Iron Core Coil with Discs 1,200mH AWG13 0,075Ohm, 000-5805 - Fidelity Components Shop 12,64eur

Tweeter: 33,63eur
Woofer 36,88 eur
Total: 70,51 eur

FR - Green is my startingpoint before changing to real life component values

 

[eriksquires]

Thiose look really good. one trickhowever is to get a 1, 2 and 3 ohm resistor for the teeeter. that lets you try every value from 1 to six ohms, or 2, 3 and 6 ohms, letting you try 2,3,5, 6, 8, and 11. You get the idea. 😀

Thanks for the tips 🙂 I think i have something going now! Here are the first look at components and FR for these values.

I have listed a bunch of resistors to use for R3 tweeter level adjustment.

Tweeter:

• C2 10uF - Capacitor MKP Mundorf MCap 400 VDC 10 uF - Fidelity Components Shop 7,99eur
• C11 1uF - Capacitor MKP Mundorf MCap 400 VDC 1 uF - Fidelity Components Shop 3,19eur
• R3 2,7ohm - Resistor MOX Mundorf 10W 2.7 Ohm Metal Oxide - Fidelity Components Shop 1,29eur
• 3,9ohm - Resistor MOX Mundorf 10W 3.9 Ohm Metal Oxide - Fidelity Components Shop 1,29eur
• 4,7ohm - Resistor MOX Mundorf 10W 4.7 Ohm Metal Oxide - Fidelity Components Shop 1,29eur
• 5,6ohm - Resistor MOX Mundorf 10W 5.6 Ohm Metal Oxide - Fidelity Components Shop 1,29eur
• 6,8ohm - Resistor MOX Mundorf 10W 6.8 Ohm Metal Oxide - Fidelity Components Shop 1,29eur
• R13 5.6 ohm - Resistor MOX Mundorf 10W 5.6 Ohm Metal Oxide - Fidelity Components Shop 1,29eur
• L3 0,47mH - Jantzen Air Core Coil 0,47mH AWG17 0,25Ohm, 000-0887 - Fidelity Components Shop 4,99eur
• L2 0,56mH - Jantzen Air Core Coil 0,56mH AWG17 0,272Ohm, 000-0888 - Fidelity Components Shop 5,33eur
• L9 0,35mH - Jantzen Air Core Coil 0,35mH AWG17 0,23Ohm, 000-1979 - Fidelity Components Shop 4,39eur

Woofer:

• C4 22uF - Capacitor Jantzen Cross Cap MKP 400 VDC 22 uF - Fidelity Components Shop 4,98eur
• R5 100ohm - Resistor Jantzen MOX RSS 5% 10W 100 Ohm - Fidelity Components Shop 1,03eur
• R4 6,2ohm - Resistor Jantzen MOX RSS 5% 10W 6,2 Ohm - Fidelity Components Shop 1,29eur
• L11 2,6mH - Jantzen Iron Core Coil with Discs 2,600mH AWG13 0,11Ohm, 000-5801 - Fidelity Components Shop 16,94eur
• L6 1,2mH - Jantzen Iron Core Coil with Discs 1,200mH AWG13 0,075Ohm, 000-5805 - Fidelity Components Shop 12,64eur

Tweeter: 33,63eur
Woofer 36,88 eur
Total: 70,51 eur

FR - Green is my startingpoint before changing to real life component values

 

[Sultanen]

Your choices look great to me. If you can find Axon or Bennic caps, they are even cheaper than the Jantzen Cross Caps. Great for the woofer. 🙂

I think in your price range you had a number of good options for coils. Again, don't get expensive. I have a feeling when you are done with this project you'll want to do another one from scratch. That's where you'll spend your money on fancy coils. 🙂

So long as you keep your DCR in your woofer coils < 0.4 Ohms you should do great. I thought I found that for the exact same money you could get a Jantzen PCore with like half the DCR. I'd go that route instead, but you can always model it in XSim. Jantzen coils are very close to spec so you can look at your XSim while trying out different DCR values if you want to. If this was an uber build, I'd consider doing all air coil with big guage wires or copper foil. Still, take any of your possible coil choices and compare it to where you started from. When you get a chance, you should model your original crossover (or lack of one) again to see how much different the speakers are going to be. Don't sweat 0.2 Ohms of DCR in a coil. It's a major improvement that you have a coil at all now. 🙂

Also, I really like Steve's (System7) use of wire ties and anchors to hold everything down. That way it's easy to reuse or change a part your not happy with, instead of hot-gluing everything.

Erik

No need to go lower on that cap, at 70eur/crossover i can't say that i feel that the circuit is expensive 🙂 I have spent so many hours trying to learn now so spending a bit only fells good 😛

You are absolutely correct that the biggest difference here is to introduce the coils or the crossover at all since its totally lacking now



Regarding system7's chooice of using straps its a really great idea and i will do this when i start mounting the parts to the plate 🙂

Also, I should point out that for the Leach Memorial speakers I'm blogging, I'm probably going to end up getting the Jantzen P-Core inductors for the woofers as being very high price/performance parts. Especially important considering the coils and high inductance values I'll be using there.

Thanks for the link, i have been reading a bit on your blog =)
Im using the same now in the woofer, i choosed 13AWG mainly because it had the widest range of values.

 

[Sultanen]

Thiose look really good. one trickhowever is to get a 1, 2 and 3 ohm resistor for the teeeter. that lets you try every value from 1 to six ohms, or 2, 3 and 6 ohms, letting you try 2,3,5, 6, 8, and 11. You get the idea. 😀

Smart! I was thinking about buying a bunch of 1ohm resistors but this is really cleaver 🙂

Updated partslist:

Tweeter:

• C2 10uF - Capacitor MKP Mundorf MCap 400 VDC 10 uF - Fidelity Components Shop 7,99eur
• C11 (1,21uF) 1uF - Capacitor MKP Mundorf MCap 400 VDC 1 uF - Fidelity Components Shop 3,19eur
• R3 4,7ohm - Resistor MOX Mundorf 10W 4.7 Ohm Metal Oxide - Fidelity Components Shop 1,29eur
• 1,0ohm Resistor MOX Mundorf 10W 1.0 Ohm Metal Oxide - Fidelity Components Shop 1,29eur
• 2,2ohm Resistor MOX Mundorf 10W 2.2 Ohm Metal Oxide - Fidelity Components Shop 1,29eur
• 3,3ohm Resistor MOX Mundorf 10W 3.3 Ohm Metal Oxide - Fidelity Components Shop 1,29eur
• R13 (5.9ohm) 5.6 ohm - Resistor MOX Mundorf 10W 5.6 Ohm Metal Oxide - Fidelity Components Shop 1,29eur
• L3 0,47mH - Jantzen Air Core Coil 0,47mH AWG17 0,25Ohm, 000-0887 - Fidelity Components Shop 4,99eur
• L2 0,56mH - Jantzen Air Core Coil 0,56mH AWG17 0,272Ohm, 000-0888 - Fidelity Components Shop 5,33eur
• L9 (0,3mH) 0,35mH - Jantzen Air Core Coil 0,35mH AWG17 0,23Ohm, 000-1979 - Fidelity Components Shop 4,39eur

Woofer:

• C4 22uF - Capacitor Jantzen Cross Cap MKP 400 VDC 22 uF - Fidelity Components Shop 4,98eur
• R5 100ohm - Resistor Jantzen MOX RSS 5% 10W 100 Ohm - Fidelity Components Shop 1,03eur
• R4 6,2ohm - Resistor Jantzen MOX RSS 5% 10W 6,2 Ohm - Fidelity Components Shop 1,29eur
• L11 (2,4mH) 2,6mH - Jantzen Iron Core Coil with Discs 2,600mH AWG13 0,11Ohm, 000-5801 - Fidelity Components Shop 16,94eur
• L6 1,2mH - Jantzen Iron Core Coil with Discs 1,200mH AWG13 0,075Ohm, 000-5805 - Fidelity Components Shop 12,64eur

Tweeter: 32,34 eur
Woofer 36,88 eur
Total: 69,22 eur

Other(feel-good stuff):

• Jantzen Binding Posts M6/27 Gold, 1 pair - Fidelity Components Shop 9,90eur
• Dayton Audio SBPP-BK Binding Post Plate Black - Fidelity Components Shop 8,95eur

 

[eriksquires]

You are pretty much ready to go my friend! 🙂

Best,


Erik

Smart! I was thinking about buying a bunch of 1ohm resistors but this is really cleaver 🙂

Updated partslist:

Tweeter:

• C2 10uF - Capacitor MKP Mundorf MCap 400 VDC 10 uF - Fidelity Components Shop 7,99eur
• C11 (1,21uF) 1uF - Capacitor MKP Mundorf MCap 400 VDC 1 uF - Fidelity Components Shop 3,19eur
• R3 4,7ohm - Resistor MOX Mundorf 10W 4.7 Ohm Metal Oxide - Fidelity Components Shop 1,29eur
• 1,0ohm Resistor MOX Mundorf 10W 1.0 Ohm Metal Oxide - Fidelity Components Shop 1,29eur
• 2,2ohm Resistor MOX Mundorf 10W 2.2 Ohm Metal Oxide - Fidelity Components Shop 1,29eur
• 3,3ohm Resistor MOX Mundorf 10W 3.3 Ohm Metal Oxide - Fidelity Components Shop 1,29eur
• R13 (5.9ohm) 5.6 ohm - Resistor MOX Mundorf 10W 5.6 Ohm Metal Oxide - Fidelity Components Shop 1,29eur
• L3 0,47mH - Jantzen Air Core Coil 0,47mH AWG17 0,25Ohm, 000-0887 - Fidelity Components Shop 4,99eur
• L2 0,56mH - Jantzen Air Core Coil 0,56mH AWG17 0,272Ohm, 000-0888 - Fidelity Components Shop 5,33eur
• L9 (0,3mH) 0,35mH - Jantzen Air Core Coil 0,35mH AWG17 0,23Ohm, 000-1979 - Fidelity Components Shop 4,39eur

Woofer:

• C4 22uF - Capacitor Jantzen Cross Cap MKP 400 VDC 22 uF - Fidelity Components Shop 4,98eur
• R5 100ohm - Resistor Jantzen MOX RSS 5% 10W 100 Ohm - Fidelity Components Shop 1,03eur
• R4 6,2ohm - Resistor Jantzen MOX RSS 5% 10W 6,2 Ohm - Fidelity Components Shop 1,29eur
• L11 (2,4mH) 2,6mH - Jantzen Iron Core Coil with Discs 2,600mH AWG13 0,11Ohm, 000-5801 - Fidelity Components Shop 16,94eur
• L6 1,2mH - Jantzen Iron Core Coil with Discs 1,200mH AWG13 0,075Ohm, 000-5805 - Fidelity Components Shop 12,64eur

Tweeter: 32,34 eur
Woofer 36,88 eur
Total: 69,22 eur

Other(feel-good stuff):

• Jantzen Binding Posts M6/27 Gold, 1 pair - Fidelity Components Shop 9,90eur
• Dayton Audio SBPP-BK Binding Post Plate Black - Fidelity Components Shop 8,95eur

 

[Sultanen]

Great! Ill place the order during the weekend 🙂
Anything else you would suggest being a good thing to purchase from http://audiohobby.eu while im ordering?

My plan is to mount everything on an MDF(or something similar) sheet, will drill holes to and clamp down the components with straps. Initially ill use these http://www.electrokit.com/public/upload/productimage/43160-17979-4.jpg to tie the components together, when its tested and working ill solder everything.

 

[Mooly]

I've split karoly's post off,

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/287986-2-5-way-crossover-how-works.html

 

[Sultanen]

I FINALLY received all the parts from audiohobby, the first parcel was all smashed up and like 50% of the parts was missing due to a big tear.. Cudos to audiohobby for fixing this even though it took a while.. But now 3 months later i have it all at home so now i just have to build the crossover and test it out 😀

 

[eriksquires]

Sorry about the trouble, but AudioHobby has a really nice crew to work with. As soon as the Euro takes a huge nose dive I'll be ordering from them. 😀 😀 😀

Erik

 

[Sultanen]

Hello again everyone!

I finally gathered some time to finish this projekt! A really good feeling to actually see it all the way through 😀

Tonight i was up until 03:30AM to finish the second speaker and today i put them to the test.

The crossovers are split up into two "parts", left is Tweeter and right is Woofer

The final result of the front and back with the gorgeous black allen head bolts, i really love that the changes are so subtile since i love the look of these speakers!

I accidentally put the tweeters in reverse on the first attempt but that was great, now i have some confirmation that i got the phases kinda correct at least.. 🙂

Right (the one i did all the measurements on)
Inverted Tweeter:

Correct:

Left
Inverted Tweeter:

Correct:

So, what do you guys think? =)

 

[eriksquires]

Very nice! What do you think of the sound, and the treble balance?

As I recall, you were going to put them up against the wall, but these measurements seem like free-space. Those are some pricey woofer coils! 🙂 Go play some music and let us know.

Best,


Erik

 

[Sultanen]

Thanks 🙂

Unfortunately i did a really stupid thing in the garage about a month ago and i ended up getting tinnitus on my right ear so i have kinda hard to appreciate music at the moment 🙁 I hope that i will learn to live with this and learn to ignore that but its hard at the moment. But i have listened to some music on the speakers and the improvement is huge! Maby there is a bit to much treble but i think i need to wait a while before adjusting it.

The speakers are up against the wall during this test, maby there is a way to get some deeper base from them but this is what i have at the moment? As i may have mentioned before i'm running the speakers in a HT setup so i have a subwoofer that can complement the lower end. On a side note though, i have realised that the balance on that subwoofer is really crappy 😛

 

[eriksquires]

miniDSP for the win! 🙂

Better is miniDSP + bass traps, but that's usuall more than people want to spend.

Get a miniDSP unit for your sub, cut the peaks, and then you reset the level and it integrates better.

 

[eriksquires]

So sorry to hear about your tinitis though! What a disappointment that must be!

Erik