studio monitor advice

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#41
krivium said:
Well, i agree with you BUT for some people in an entertainment purpose they do prefers a soundsystem which ad things to the message encoded on the medium (to the worst or the best). In the end it is all but a matter of taste at least in a domestic environnement. For professionnal needs it differs you have to make objective and technical choices, you can't rely on an euphonic reproduction.
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Taste?
How many people you heard that have treated their room then said they prefer their room untreated?

Toole test were made in room so wide that the side walls reflection may not even be considered first reflection anymore

But in a small room, I have never seen anyone mentionning going back to untreated. All ive read is people freaking out about the increase in SQ. Its not a small difference, its like having a whole new system
Its a incredible thing what it adds. The soundstage depth and clarity is nothing short of stunning.

Charles Darwin said:
If you can build a speaker I'm fairly certain that with a little research you can build bass traps. There are many variations on the theme but generally foam ones are considered the least effective but sometimes the only option.
Just google 'diy bass traps' but here is one example from page one regarding small rooms: Q. What kind of bass trap do I need?

The advantages would be twofold:
1) You may or may not save some money;
2) you get to fit them to your room.
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its not one over the other, ideally you want both type of bass traps: velocity and pressure based.
 
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#42
Charles Darwin said:
If you can build a speaker I'm fairly certain that with a little research you can build bass traps. There are many variations on the theme but generally foam ones are considered the least effective but sometimes the only option.
Just google 'diy bass traps' but here is one example from page one regarding small rooms: Q. What kind of bass trap do I need?

The advantages would be twofold:
1) You may or may not save some money;
2) you get to fit them to your room.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I probably didnt make it too clear in the beginning, but I do have 7inch thick floor-ceiling basstrap panels in each corner, I made them out of building/fiberglass insulation, they tightened up the low end significantly, thats why I was surprised at my REW results!

Thanks for the article, limp membrane absorbers look interesting..

Um, dude, I'm serious when I tell you I had EXACTLY the same problems. Why are you panicking now? This is exactly what I've been warning you about, and there's a solution.

Let me share you a living room picture. I literally thought my test procedure was broken. As you can see, I purchased 2 of these and put them in the corner, stacked. Measurements and sound quality are now all to die-for. I had 3 2'x4' panels before this. Did improve imaging and clarity but not bass like these did.
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Cool, that's encouraging, looks great!
I will consider these, maybe some of the european equivalents will yield similar results, hard to tell..


You are absolutely right Charles but 'regular' bass trap (helmotz resonator) have drawback in small rooms:
_ they eats up a lot of space to be effective at a given freq,
_ usually they work on a limited frequency range.

They can deal (more or less) with some room modes but they will not tame the low end the way foam absorbers (which are more broadband) do and in small room this is more what to do imho.
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What do you think about a 50cm thick 'superchunk' absorber covering a whole wall? I was reading about one like this over on Gearslutz:superchunk-wall-bass-trap


thanks again for all the info guys🙂
 
#43
In the past I tried using generic acoustic panels across a corner. In theory they were supposed to be good, but did nothing really in the bass. These soffit traps worked really well for me. It might be worth investigating their ratings to find something that works easily well.

Part of the issue is that standard acoustic measurements tend to want to measure only around 250Hz or more. Not sure why, but I think that's historical.

Best,


Erik
 
#44
I actually found measurements! Also, there IS a GIK Europe. Check these out. Most acoustic panels are shifted to the right on this chart. Having something that absorbs well at 80Hz is a wonderful thing.

RAL-Sound-Absorption-Report-Soffit.jpg
 
#46
dimebucker5 said:
What do you think about a 50cm thick 'superchunk' absorber covering a whole wall? I was reading about one like this over on Gearslutz:superchunk-wall-bass-trap


thanks again for all the info guys🙂
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Do you have corners treated already?
if you do make a whole wall, assure you to install in front of the absorption (unless in a first reflection point) slotted wood panels, FRK, or any kind of material to allow the mid-high to come back into the room.
I have done the mistake at first and covered the whole back wall resulting in a dead room. very uncomfortable.

50cm is thick enough, I use 14 inch in my front corners with big air gap. works amazing. but before covering a whole wall, youd be better treating as much corner as possible.

Lastly, asssure you to use the right rockwool as the thicker you go, the less dense you want your rockwool. 2pcf for 20 cm is the best.
 
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#47
Superchunk? Sound familiar to me... 🙂 Remember i mentioned Sayers? I think i remember he is the man behind the spread of principle... 😉

take a look here:
John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum • Index page

Sorry, I probably didnt make it too clear in the beginning, but I do have 7inch thick floor-ceiling basstrap panels in each corner, I made them out of building/fiberglass insulation, they tightened up the low end significantly, thats why I was surprised at my REW results!
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Ok. Did you simulate them or build some recipe from the internet? I ask because now you have tools to take measurements it could be interesting to design some that can adress issues in your room if that was not the case. Don't take it harsh but fiberglass won't do many things vs rockwool (but cost is not the same too): it's just not the material needed (great as thermal insulator not for acoustical purpose).
 
#49
if you do make a whole wall, assure you to install (unless in a first reflection point) slotted wood panels, FRK, or any kind of material to allow the mid-high to come back into the room.
I have done the mistake at first and covered the whole back wall resulting in a dead room. very uncomfortable.
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Wise words: don't overdo! Good acoustic treatment is a mix of absorption, reflexion and diffraction. You overdo one and you skrew it all! And you must know what you're trying to do. 😉
 
#50
krivium said:
Wise words: don't overdo! Good acoustic treatment is a mix of absorption, reflexion and diffraction. You overdo one and you skrew it all! And you must know what you're trying to do. 😉
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I cant stress this enough. made the mistake myself.
basically, ANY panel that are not in the first reflection point MUST be fronted with somethig (diffusion, slotted wood, FRK, plastic even cardboard) to allow mid and hi to come back in the room.
Nothing worst then a dead sounding space. I learn that the hard way lol
 
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#52
Some usefull tools:

mh-audio.nl - Acoustic

You can calculate helmotz resonators, helmotz panel, panel,... bass traps. As a plus you can simulate diffusors but depending on your placement in room they can or can't be used ( they need minimum 2m to be effective and not to generate artifacts to be used, usually they're located on the back wall).

http://www.acousticmodelling.com/

more technical but who knows... 🙂
 
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#53
krivium said:
AH AH! I really love the fail on axiom 4!

That said size is very relative... once you lived for more than 15 years with 3 ways speakers with 15" bass from the early 90's, nearly all speakers looks tiny cute thingy! 😉

I'm the lucky one with high waf (or girlfriend with good ears)! My next one will be 315liters by side towers with 5x12" each cab. She said "why not if they sound as good as these one!".
I fell in love a second time. 🙂
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Wonderful. Just please don't be the guy who puts in such large speakers they make the room look small.

🙂

Best,


Erik
 
#54
krivium said:
Superchunk? Sound familiar to me... 🙂 Remember i mentioned Sayers? I think i remember he is the man behind the spread of principle... 😉

take a look here:
John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum • Index page



Ok. Did you simulate them or build some recipe from the internet? I ask because now you have tools to take measurements it could be interesting to design some that can adress issues in your room if that was not the case. Don't take it harsh but fiberglass won't do many things vs rockwool (but cost is not the same too): it's just not the material needed (great as thermal insulator not for acoustical purpose).
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what is the pcf of the fiberglass you use dimebucker? normally i see people using rockwool.
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I used 10-15 kg/m3 glass wool, NOT the rigid board type..
Maybe unfair to say that its not for acoustic purpose, seems like a valid choice in this discussion: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/low-end-theory/125856-rockwool-glasswool.html

Yes I did use a recipe from the internet, 1200mmx600mmx170mm frames with felt fabric on the front and back see here

I built 8 of them and they straddle the four corners of my room.

.
 
#56
Dimebucker you should try to simulate your basstraps using the second link i gave in the previous post (acousticmodelling.com).

It's simple you just use the porous absorber calculator en you enter the thickness of material used (don't change anything else it'll just give you an idea for the same you have build but with some rockwool instead of glasswool).edit: If you want to simulate your's change the flow resistivty to 5000.

Once you have the graph go back in the thread and compare versus the data provided by Erik, you'll see why you've got different results.

(i've done but for whatever reason i can't attach the picture...)
 
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#57
Just please don't be the guy who puts in such large speakers they make the room look small.
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I could be THAT guy Erik! I've been under bad influence:

http://www.tweaz.com/files/studios/1f8c17819ed8da6b0988698fa674f986/salles/1/photo1.jpg

I think this picture don't give enough credit to the size of the room... It's approximately 200m² control room. The 9000 desk is near 5m width... All drivers are TAD! 12x15" for sub as one channel, dual 12" each cab, 2" each TH4002 horn and et703 each cab... Jawdropping first time you see it in real! 😉
 
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#58
That would be dependant on the target frequency area you want to treat.
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You're right, i 'll rewrite it differently:

given the absorption coefficient of different materials the one that is the most effective and the most usefull is rockwool. It as other advantages in not being health dangerous (no need to wear a mask or having your skin to be protected during handling, and much lesser potential of hazard long term).
 
#59
Sorry to remove my post, I was reading 2 threads with similar treatment solutions offered and retracted my posts due to seeing I put this on the wrong thread.

But glass wool can effectively treat some acoustic problems in some areas. But to treat any kind of problem, why not first look at what it is you need to treat. Stuffing a room full of treatment isn't the way. Analyse the room and speakers first. Determine the right spot to place the speakers and choose the ideal listening spot. Work from there...
 
#60
I've seen a lot of talk about bass traps and as useful as they are, this conversation started by looking at an FR plot that had ripples in mid frequencies.
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I fully agree Wesayso, but i think that what happened here is that once you've got tools you start to make measurements and once you start and you had already build something that could have fix issues you think where there and you collect data showing not really... 😉

Dimebucker: for what i've simulated your already build 'basstrap' are quite effective sidewall treatments to lessen first reflexions! (from my sim they have nearly the same response as Erik's wall treatments). And if you can do some 'ray tracing' and angle them the correct way, you could achieve some kind of RFZ. 😉
 
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