Hi mkrav,
Yes, You're right and I did that deliberately and used a CSA that's not optimal.
'George Augspurger did a writeup on this design in SPeaker Builder back when I had hair.'
That Article would be nice to be acquainted with..
b🙂
I'm looking for it.
Unfortunately I lost a great many of my back issues the last time I moved. Water damage turned them into one big lump.
Internet trolling I go.
Unfortunately I lost a great many of my back issues the last time I moved. Water damage turned them into one big lump.
Internet trolling I go.
Yeah that Bass Cannon response @ Positron.org looked wacky to me too 🙁
I heard a Bose Cannon some years ago, & it was the worst bass sound i had heard, then or since 😱
@ Mark Kravchenko
Stereo Integrity should have updated the specs. Why didn't they ? Not good !
I heard a Bose Cannon some years ago, & it was the worst bass sound i had heard, then or since 😱
@ Mark Kravchenko
Stereo Integrity should have updated the specs. Why didn't they ? Not good !
Hi Mark,
Just last month I received an e-mail from the Automotive Systems Division of Bose indicating that they would like to use Hornresp, and asking if a licence was required. Perhaps they are getting serious about loudspeaker design - for cars, at least 🙂.
Kind regards,
David
That's fairly interesting. Have you considered drafting license terms and agreements for commercial entities? It's certainly not an unrealistic proposition given the value of the software.
I don't think being a free software altruist and collecting reasonable licensing fees from large companies are mutually exclusive.
I don't think being a free software altruist and collecting reasonable licensing fees from large companies are mutually exclusive.
I was too busy to comment when you posted up the ts parameters you measured. I don`t think they are correct.
Look at that measured MMS. 843 grams. That is seriously unlikely. Theoretically possible I suppose but extremely unlikely. SI`s published MMS is less than half that (416 g) and data-bass measured the prototype MMS at 446.6 g. In fact I don`t know of any drivers off the top of my head with MMS as high as you measured. Here`s a chart Djim posted in a different thread showing MMS (last column) of a bunch of some of the largest MMS drivers out there. The highest MMS on the list isnt even close to 843 g.
The changes that would be required to double MMS are huge, it is not something that would likely be the result of having a different factory making the driver. It would require all new parts, a completely different driver.
Anthony you might be right.
I just received some precision scale calibration weights. And I will redo the Vas test. That is the only part that I am a little suspicious about to. The rest is pretty idiot proof with the WoofertesterPro.
On the other hand, the specs could be correct as the BL is higher to. Magnets are the same size, so the only way to raise the BL is to add more L (wire) when the B (magnet) is the same. If the magnet wire is copper instead of CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum) then you have your difference right there. Aluminum is a 1/3rd the weight of copper. Again bingo you have your mass difference.
And no the changes to double MMs are not huge. A different surround and cone and bingo your mass can go through the roof. Believe me when I'm trying to get the mass down on some of my woofers it is no easy feat.
I was suspicious enough to pop for the calibration weights.
So give me a few days. My plate is pretty full as of now.
Four custom enclosures to finish and some awesome horns that 75% finished but still not finished.
A mad scientist's work is never done.
I just received some precision scale calibration weights. And I will redo the Vas test. That is the only part that I am a little suspicious about to. The rest is pretty idiot proof with the WoofertesterPro.
On the other hand, the specs could be correct as the BL is higher to. Magnets are the same size, so the only way to raise the BL is to add more L (wire) when the B (magnet) is the same. If the magnet wire is copper instead of CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum) then you have your difference right there. Aluminum is a 1/3rd the weight of copper. Again bingo you have your mass difference.
And no the changes to double MMs are not huge. A different surround and cone and bingo your mass can go through the roof. Believe me when I'm trying to get the mass down on some of my woofers it is no easy feat.
I was suspicious enough to pop for the calibration weights.
So give me a few days. My plate is pretty full as of now.
Four custom enclosures to finish and some awesome horns that 75% finished but still not finished.
A mad scientist's work is never done.
On the subject of the Bose-like Wave Pipe - here's a blast from the past (2002).
"The Legend of El Pipe-O"
https://www.passdiy.com/pdf/el-pipe-o.pd
Bach On
"The Legend of El Pipe-O"
https://www.passdiy.com/pdf/el-pipe-o.pd
Bach On
That is a great example of a transmission line.
And they work quite well. And a very clean sound.
Pretty easy to construct to!
And they work quite well. And a very clean sound.
Pretty easy to construct to!
Most of the horn designs I've seen require some degree of precision woodworking. It would require an attention to detail in the shop. I think I could do it, but it will take discipline.
As those who have accompanied me on this rather long ourney know, one of the issues I've been experiencing is a shortage of real estate in our pipe/speaker chamber. Olver's triangular design helped me take advantage of a corner where typical rectangular (or even circular) woofers wouldn't be a good fit. I hope to find out that the two subwoofers in our setup will be sufficient for 16 Hz.
The speculating I'm doing now is purely what to do if the SPL isn't sufficient?
Being able to suspend a "pipe" over from the ceiling so it is over the organ pipes would keep the path clear for the technicians to gain access to the pipes. That has some real advantages.
But here's the issue I keep seeing. Some of the fine people in this forum like one type of horn, but think another sounds terrible. I'm not familiar with the many derivations. And I don't have any local venues where I can go and do a comparison of the various kinds of horns.
What's a guy to do?
BO
As those who have accompanied me on this rather long ourney know, one of the issues I've been experiencing is a shortage of real estate in our pipe/speaker chamber. Olver's triangular design helped me take advantage of a corner where typical rectangular (or even circular) woofers wouldn't be a good fit. I hope to find out that the two subwoofers in our setup will be sufficient for 16 Hz.
The speculating I'm doing now is purely what to do if the SPL isn't sufficient?
Being able to suspend a "pipe" over from the ceiling so it is over the organ pipes would keep the path clear for the technicians to gain access to the pipes. That has some real advantages.
But here's the issue I keep seeing. Some of the fine people in this forum like one type of horn, but think another sounds terrible. I'm not familiar with the many derivations. And I don't have any local venues where I can go and do a comparison of the various kinds of horns.
What's a guy to do?
BO
You talk to Art. I'm sure he has heard just about everything out there.
Oliver is knowledgeable.
Dr. Dyna.
There have even been situations setup where 4 different enclosures were designed with 4 sets of identical drivers. I did that a few years back.
Use the resources you have Ron.
If I had to list the best to worst based on colourations added into the mix by the enclosure it would look like this.
Least coloured sound to most coloured sound:
Tline = Front loaded horn. The only thing a horn has better is dynamics and efficiency.
Sealed box is a very sloe second depending on the motor strength and size of enclosure.
Vented enclosure. With a correctly sized vent and a good balance in between box size and system efficiency this can sound pretty good.
Tapped horn. Why? It's entire method of reproduction depends on harmonics. The ones that fill the saddle in between the low frequency peak and the high frequency peak. Many gents like the sound. I can't fault them for their taste. But when directly compared in a matched level setting there is a distinct tapped horn sound.
Oliver is knowledgeable.
Dr. Dyna.
There have even been situations setup where 4 different enclosures were designed with 4 sets of identical drivers. I did that a few years back.
Use the resources you have Ron.
If I had to list the best to worst based on colourations added into the mix by the enclosure it would look like this.
Least coloured sound to most coloured sound:
Tline = Front loaded horn. The only thing a horn has better is dynamics and efficiency.
Sealed box is a very sloe second depending on the motor strength and size of enclosure.
Vented enclosure. With a correctly sized vent and a good balance in between box size and system efficiency this can sound pretty good.
Tapped horn. Why? It's entire method of reproduction depends on harmonics. The ones that fill the saddle in between the low frequency peak and the high frequency peak. Many gents like the sound. I can't fault them for their taste. But when directly compared in a matched level setting there is a distinct tapped horn sound.
If you are interested in tapped horns, you are lucky to be on this forum because nowhere else in the known universe are tapped horns paid much respect for use in music systems. And I am not sure if adherents even here advocate for their use where bass quality is the prime target. At least at the present time.
Draw your own conclusions.
Ben
I wonder how much the environment is affecting things. Usually drivers are measured in free air (at least for ts), not in IB. And even with the doors and windows open in a car it's not really IB, the car is going to have a significant effect. All of this will change the impedance curve. Change the impedance curve and the derived parameters will change.
I don't think the precision of the weights is the culprit here, and I don't think he switched from aluminum to copper. To keep the price low I don't think that's a feasible option, and this driver is all about being the value leader. It's possible he used more wire in the coil and a different cone, but still, 843 g is a HUGE value for MMS.
I would pop that thing out of the car to measure, I think that might be the problem. I don't discount the fact that it might be using new parts but I don't think that alone accounts for the high MMS you measured.
Your known universe must be pretty small, every forum I read regularly uses and likes tapped horns. When I say uses, that means they have actually heard one, unlike you. In fact the majority of people that say they don't like tapped horns have never heard one (from what I've seen), and most people that have heard one like them very much. A lot of people use them for music systems and probably most don't even have the capability to time align them and still love them.
Maybe it would help if you could provide a few quotes from people who have actually heard them and don't like them, or at least list some of the websites and forums you visit as that would probably explain a lot.
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@ just a guy
Don't start this all over again please!
I'm one who does not like the sound of tapped horns. I've heard them and built them. My reasons are simple.
Keep in mind another thing.
The tapped horn concept is old. Very old. And has been used in the old console sound systems from the 50's. More people have heard them than you think.
Don't start this all over again please!
I'm one who does not like the sound of tapped horns. I've heard them and built them. My reasons are simple.
Keep in mind another thing.
The tapped horn concept is old. Very old. And has been used in the old console sound systems from the 50's. More people have heard them than you think.
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