The same little campfire with the same people gathered around.
I do come to these threads hoping to learn something new.
I do come to these threads hoping to learn something new.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonBocani View Post
Oh, ok.
Please define ''very successfully'', as i'm starting to think you might express your tastings for oaky australian shiraz while we discuss Armand Rousseau's Grand crus.
Your lenghty message is an obvious demonstration of a lack of real-world experimentations.
To continue with the analogy: you try to taste wines by looking at their chemical compositions. Well, good look with that, please don't forget to send us the perfect recipe once you find it...
You sure look like someone who's in the knowing, but you're not. Thanks for clearing that up to me, though.
I will pursue my quest for the best Bourgognes, while you enjoy your virtual tastings of grape juice.
Originally Posted by JonBocani View Post
Oh, ok.
Please define ''very successfully'', as i'm starting to think you might express your tastings for oaky australian shiraz while we discuss Armand Rousseau's Grand crus.
5th element said:
Your lenghty message is an obvious demonstration of a lack of real-world experimentations.
To continue with the analogy: you try to taste wines by looking at their chemical compositions. Well, good look with that, please don't forget to send us the perfect recipe once you find it...
You sure look like someone who's in the knowing, but you're not. Thanks for clearing that up to me, though.
I will pursue my quest for the best Bourgognes, while you enjoy your virtual tastings of grape juice.
Seems wine tasting has a fair few parallels to the current state of audio:
Wine-tasting: it's junk science | Life and style | The Guardian
You do realize that the good recipe's in audio come from the musicians right? The reproduction of that isn't really an art form. Although many seem to look at it that way.
Please don't get me wrong.
Measurements and data ARE important. But the thing is, we cannot (yet) measure each and every variables. One of the main reasons is we deal with something extremely complex: sensorial perception.
This is what this test is all about.
Are we able to perceive differences ?
If yes, on which (perceived) level ?
If not, by what % of testees and why ?
Then, the appreciation part might tell us (with enough testees so it can be statistically valid) the preferences, and how big they are.
i.e.; 68% of testees prefered the Driver B overall, but Driver D was the second choice by 79% and Driver A was only chosen 1st choice by 4% and second choice by 12%, etc... etc...
Then we can dissect the results by Audiophiles v.s. Non-audiophiles and even Men/Women! 😉
Measurements and data ARE important. But the thing is, we cannot (yet) measure each and every variables. One of the main reasons is we deal with something extremely complex: sensorial perception.
This is what this test is all about.
Are we able to perceive differences ?
If yes, on which (perceived) level ?
If not, by what % of testees and why ?
Then, the appreciation part might tell us (with enough testees so it can be statistically valid) the preferences, and how big they are.
i.e.; 68% of testees prefered the Driver B overall, but Driver D was the second choice by 79% and Driver A was only chosen 1st choice by 4% and second choice by 12%, etc... etc...
Then we can dissect the results by Audiophiles v.s. Non-audiophiles and even Men/Women! 😉
LOL. Accusing 5th element of lack of real world testing!
Oh, might be even worst then, doc... ;-)
But still, he doesnt seem to have even try any RAAL nor any of the ''exotic'' FR... but that doesn't stop him of talking about it, in a very affirmative way.
Precisely my point.
That recipe doesnt exist because there is no absolute answers in the sensorial perception world.
But the test we're talking about here is not a quest for an absolute answer. It never was the intention (and sorry if the thread's title was somewhat misleading about that...haha)
On the other hand, i thing it might be equally interesting and useful to know the results of the test for the statistics point of view.
True. But contrary to winery, audio reproduction is based on real world parameters thus can be objectively measured. From a purely objective way, driver A "can" better than driver "B". Wine can't.
Very interesting but i have to stop you right now: it's a completely different debate that is unrelated to the present discussion.
The audio reproduction quest should be very simple: High-Fidelity.
That means the absolute ultimate Hi-Fi system could litteraly copy any sound from the nature (including music) and reproduce it without any way, for a user, knowing if it's a copy or the original.
Needless to say we're very far from there.
So, yes, it might have drifted somehow to some sort of ''Art'' form, for many people...
I might even say that many people (especially DIYers?) tend to drift from the real Hifi goal towards a more ''tailored-sound-machine'' dedicated only for their specific music tastings AND ears. Which is not a bad thing per se, but it's obviously going out of the ''high-fidelity mission''.
Actually, there is more similarities between wine and audio than you might think.
There IS real world parameters regarding the wine. And the wine industry is extremely interested by them...
Chemical Composition | WineSkills
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_chemistry
Compound Interest - The Key Chemicals in Red Wine – Colour, Flavour, and Potential Health Benefits
There is even a growing market for labs and lab's tool, etc... regarding all that:
Wine Analysis - Creative Proteomics
Finally, you can be sure that big multi-millions wineries are doing R&D including statistics on people's tastes before launching a new product on the market.
tomahack said:
There is not much 100% objective answers in audio reproduction. At least not that gives definitive answers for the ultimate goal (for which the ear is the final judge).
Let's use Pro Audio as an exemple; A show producer asks for something ''LOUD'', which the PA guys translate into 115db.
At the very begining we might already have a translation problem.
What the producer really consider ''LOUD'' ? Is it the 25-35hz Trex-is-angry feeling ? 60-150hz hit-in-the-chest feeling ? Is it pure SPL on all the bandwith ? Is it really 115db... less, more ?
Producer's speaks ''Loudness'' while the PA guys speaks SPL.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness
And since Loudness is perceived very differently from an individual to another there is no perfect setting. Especially in a environment with many different people and listening positions.
...Just transducers/speakers that can do certain performances into certain acoustic environments at a precise point of listening/measure.
So ''better'' is possible only with one or few parts of the puzzle, but the overall result is always far from being ''perfect''.
Sad to admit but i'm pretty sure that a blind panel testing with 2008 Penfold's Grange wine would get more unanimous positive reviews than any of the so-called ''World's Best audio system'' could have...
I think we're closer to understand the taste buds than the auditory perception. Or, at least, we know better how to make good products dedicated to taste buds than for ears... ;-)
The notice about campfire and same people could be perceived as a naugty or provocation comment, my guess is everybody do their best based how good their skills are contribute in a discussion and their knowledge the subject 🙂. When real test and objective data later get on table think will help.
The request to learn something try below link where 5th element share objective data and build progress a B&W mid FST first paired a tweeter combined waveguide later on FST get phase plug removed exchanged by a modified tweeter and personal think is very interesting inspiring and educating. http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?38667-B-amp-W-FST-mid.
If you can live with a exotic midrange instead of RALL or FR recommend take time read above link.
No confusion.
For what, 4,000 years ? Winemakers relied only to their taste buds. And it worked.
Now, they want to push the winemaking ''art'' further more (or is it for marketing/business purposes ?). They use other tools, that's it.
That being said, i never heard of any winemaker that do not taste his wine... Often many times in the process of making it and just before selling it to his customers. I heard of a ''tasting-robot'' though (true!) but i'm not sure it's gonna replace winemaker's taste buds in the forseeable future.
The sensorial perception IS the final judge. Any given tool is only a way to move more efficiently towards a goal. Which in this case is... Appreciated wines (read: that will sell well).
What really limits the Audio world is mostly technological, while the Wine world is mostly limited by climates. It's clearly different patterns.
I don't think the best wines in 500 years from now will be 10 times better than the best wines we have at this moment.
But i'm extremely confident the best sound systems in 500 years will be much more convicing that what we have now.
I'm new on this website.
And it seems i brought wine to the campfire (and a tank filled with gaz, some might say..)!
That's kind of new, isnt it ?
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