Don't worry, everything is always "Very muddled up" on this thread ;-)
Maybe slightly OT, this is the best article I've seen in a while on calibrating your FFT plots to real numbers like nV/rt-Hz in the noise floor and Vrms in the bins. They also introduce some new window functions for extreme resolution with modern converters.
http://holometer.fnal.gov/GH_FFT.pdf
http://holometer.fnal.gov/GH_FFT.pdf
Someone is trying recently for speakers -- http://www.dafx14.fau.de/papers/dafx14_stephan_herzog_low_frequency_group_delay.pdf
THx-RNMarsh
This is what I don't get - what are you people listening to, or for ??! If the speaker sound is so fragile that one has to play games like this then something is very wrong, or the last thing being listened to is the music. If I'm the slightest bit aware of the speakers being part of the action then the system's not up to scratch - I don't drive a car contantly monitoring every tiny noise emerging from the engine compartment, or registering precisely how the suspension responded to each bump ... if I did, I think I would catch the train ...
LF group delay
Found this AES reference: http://www.davidreaton.com/PDFs/Holman_AES_paper.pdf
So the audible threshold of a high pass subsonic filter appears to be one order of magnitude above what was discussed here.
Found this AES reference: http://www.davidreaton.com/PDFs/Holman_AES_paper.pdf
So the audible threshold of a high pass subsonic filter appears to be one order of magnitude above what was discussed here.
Frank,
So your saying if you move side to side while sitting on a couch or standing and sitting you don't notice any changes is the sound, everything is consistent when you move around without any changes?
I happen to be one of those people who can get in my car or someone else car and I will instantly hear when something mechanical is wrong, many years of working on cars and diagnosing problems. I will instantly know if you have run-flat tires on your car, the ride will give it away.
You often say you vary rarely hear a system that sounds correct, what is that that you think you hear, don't you have a fairly good idea when it is the speakers, electronics or even the room?
So your saying if you move side to side while sitting on a couch or standing and sitting you don't notice any changes is the sound, everything is consistent when you move around without any changes?
I happen to be one of those people who can get in my car or someone else car and I will instantly hear when something mechanical is wrong, many years of working on cars and diagnosing problems. I will instantly know if you have run-flat tires on your car, the ride will give it away.
You often say you vary rarely hear a system that sounds correct, what is that that you think you hear, don't you have a fairly good idea when it is the speakers, electronics or even the room?
Regarding the playing of the Widor piece I checked my version, by Hurford, and it's in the middle with respect to timing. What the faster versions deliver is the ongoing building and release of the tension with the continual harmonic progressions, which is extremely satisfying as an emotional experience - Widor's own version lacks this inner tension, it's like a comfortable old pair of slippers and pipe in front of an open fire; which obviously has its own pleasures.
You could say I like music to drive me, not put me to sleep ....
You could say I like music to drive me, not put me to sleep ...
.Wow that is a great paper. Worthy of study, and remarkably low incidence of typos, particularly considering that the authors are native German speakers.
I like the remarks around pp. 17-18, especially the footnote.
Poo on Agilent and their undisclosed "proprietary" window (see D.2.3). That isn't going to help sell spectrum analyzers. But it didn't stop the authors.
Bravo.
And some scholars think it, or the fugue at least, may not have been written by Bach.
I heard the LA Phil do the Stokowski orchestration the other day, quite entertaining.
I had (maybe still have, but he's disappeared from view) a friend who said he would feel completely fulfilled and never have to learn another piece if he could play BWV 565.
This is what I don't get - what are you people listening to, or for ??! If the speaker sound is so fragile that one has to play games like this then something is very wrong, or the last thing being listened to is the music. If I'm the slightest bit aware of the speakers being part of the action then the system's not up to scratch - I don't drive a car contantly monitoring every tiny noise emerging from the engine compartment, or registering precisely how the suspension responded to each bump ... if I did, I think I would catch the train ...
My 2-ways and sub even sound good outside , or in a "bad" listening environment.
They might need more power outside , or slight EQ in the "bad" environment.
No EQ , still not "fatiguing". Better room and EQ ... non fatiguing AND mesmerizing.
A listener should listen to their system with NO "touchups"...
in a basement , barn , or outhouse ..... see if they still like it.
OS
4.2.1 is what I suggested yesterday so you might find someone to help you put it all together. Be careful the backwards IIR filters might mean you need to process the music before playing.
Last edited:
Yes, not hearing a change, subjectively, as one moves around in the room is the goal - there is no "sweet spot". This can only come about when the presentation of the content of the recording masks the remaining audible artifacts from the playback chain, and is quite difficult to make happen, usually. And the reason it is difficult is because one's hearing is sensitive to something not being "quite right" - just like the situation with a car. If your vehicle is mechanically slightly wrong your senses, as you say, immediately pick up on it - and it will loom large in your awareness, you will notice, constantly, the wrong behaviour.
And that's exactly how it works for me with typical systems - I immediately hear that the sound is not 'right', and a symptom of that is that the sound changes as one moves around in the listening space.
The cause of the disturbing audible artifact could be the speakers, but from experience it's nearly always the electronics. I very deliberately don't do anything with the room, never take it into account - because for me it is equivalent to taking painkillers when I sense my body playing up - the real answer is to see the doctor, and get some tests done, etc ...
i try to go by the newest figures/numbers/research Do you think it is still valid? [see4.2.1,as above for better numbers] Anyway, it's a good idea to HP the signal with GD as low as reasonably possible. Being ten times better than Holman's threshold seems good. I dont have a TT/LP system or I would try to use it. Do you have a TT/LP system to try it on and give feedback on the switched In or Out sound?
THx-RNMarsh
Last edited:
Yes, i know... that is why I put the two (your idea and this paper) together here.
I hope they take it to commercialization.
THx-RNMarsh
Yes, i know... that is why I put the two (your idea and this paper) together here.
I hope they take it to commercialization.
THx-RNMarsh
A least you know what you want is on someone's radar.
Yes what you can do real time with no processing delay is very different from what you can do if you take an entire passage and process it for later play.
In days of high naivete, circa 1996, with computer audio I thought it the ideal opportunity to do look-ahead and processing to optimize things. I soon learned that no OEM customer of Harman's was interested, even remotely.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.