Perhaps it removes the Buzz, but if it significantly changes the mechanical structure (silcone sealant and foam are very different) its not a fix, its a mod. If you like the sound of the mod great, but it wont sound factory fresh. Your speakers your choice, for which we are all in agreement?
Bill,
You should review Olaf's ("taotao" on this forum) description of the process and the consistency of the silicone material once cured. It remains very flexible and does not, in my opinon, significantly change the mechanical structure of the damping mechanism. I performed the fix/mod on one of my Duetta speakers and it does indeed work very well. I will stipulate that it does not return the speakers to "original" "factory fresh" condition but, C'mon. 🙂
Frank,
I really get irritated when people put words in my mouth. Find me a post where I said "Graz is ripping off clients." Please!
I've said repeatly that I am disappointed with the Graz business model, but I do have total faith in my fellow Apogee owners that they can make a good decision how to proceed with Apogee repairs should they be required. It's their decision.
Even when the old forum existed I commented numerous times that Graz is obviously free to set up his business model however he likes.
Your repair service is not being impugned......just clarifying that yours is a commercial endeavor and not DIY. This is primarily a DIY forum but there is a "commercial sector" on this forum as well.
Cheers,
Dave.
You should review Olaf's ("taotao" on this forum) description of the process and the consistency of the silicone material once cured. It remains very flexible and does not, in my opinon, significantly change the mechanical structure of the damping mechanism. I performed the fix/mod on one of my Duetta speakers and it does indeed work very well. I will stipulate that it does not return the speakers to "original" "factory fresh" condition but, C'mon. 🙂
Frank,
I really get irritated when people put words in my mouth. Find me a post where I said "Graz is ripping off clients." Please!
I've said repeatly that I am disappointed with the Graz business model, but I do have total faith in my fellow Apogee owners that they can make a good decision how to proceed with Apogee repairs should they be required. It's their decision.
Even when the old forum existed I commented numerous times that Graz is obviously free to set up his business model however he likes.
Your repair service is not being impugned......just clarifying that yours is a commercial endeavor and not DIY. This is primarily a DIY forum but there is a "commercial sector" on this forum as well.
Cheers,
Dave.
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Dave
Sorry, when i spoke hard. Its not my mother language. Yes, my business is my business, but i never gave here some product recommendations or similar nor did i made an offer or so.
My interest here is basically if someone has a good idea to make Apogee sounding better or other improvements. Therefor i give some information and no charge therefor.
Abouth the silicone cure.
Fine , if it works for you or someone else.
I did such a mod once for a try and found the sound of the woofer panel changed in a way i do not like.
The other thing is like bear said, Apogees are almost not made very well due tolerance ( i said its always a surprise)creating some issues and the wooden frame is often bananastyle curved due aging or bad made, and this can cause the buzz. Then the foam rott comes into the game.
There has been a reason why and how much foam was used instead of felt or silicone or whatever. It creates overdamping and this result in loss of slam and bass IMHO.
Combined with flappy tweeters the magic is away.
Frank
Sorry, when i spoke hard. Its not my mother language. Yes, my business is my business, but i never gave here some product recommendations or similar nor did i made an offer or so.
My interest here is basically if someone has a good idea to make Apogee sounding better or other improvements. Therefor i give some information and no charge therefor.
Abouth the silicone cure.
Fine , if it works for you or someone else.
I did such a mod once for a try and found the sound of the woofer panel changed in a way i do not like.
The other thing is like bear said, Apogees are almost not made very well due tolerance ( i said its always a surprise)creating some issues and the wooden frame is often bananastyle curved due aging or bad made, and this can cause the buzz. Then the foam rott comes into the game.
There has been a reason why and how much foam was used instead of felt or silicone or whatever. It creates overdamping and this result in loss of slam and bass IMHO.
Combined with flappy tweeters the magic is away.
Frank
I agree with your observation, noticed that on the left woofer panel (higher volume), half of panel goes forward, half - back, at the same time.
The Lite touch with the foil driver .....like the foam has is best...An is why a foam type is still use by Graz...........
But with the larger driver... like the Duetta an other full range Apogee....an the fact that No one can just go down to the Audio Shop an hear Newer ...are just diff pr....well leave other to say with the silicone mod....that they still sound vary good...they work an don't Buzz...As much....
This is like the 10"12"15" drivers that people think that can go to e-bay.. buy a $20 peace of foam an refoam there driver an well sound the same as new....it works but to my ears....even if you pay speaker shop to do the work...they never sound the same as when new.
As for the 26" ribbon... just the small thing of pull the tuning bars off...did something right to my ears.....an give a sound I have never got out of any ribbon!
I say tuning bars....if there in the stock setup.. the sound has more mid.. you can hear the bass driver....an the sound stage moves forward...
with out the bars...the depth move out an back....the sound of the bass is there but dose not sound like two diff things....
Much better blinding...
Thanks for your time an input Groove...........
But with the larger driver... like the Duetta an other full range Apogee....an the fact that No one can just go down to the Audio Shop an hear Newer ...are just diff pr....well leave other to say with the silicone mod....that they still sound vary good...they work an don't Buzz...As much....
This is like the 10"12"15" drivers that people think that can go to e-bay.. buy a $20 peace of foam an refoam there driver an well sound the same as new....it works but to my ears....even if you pay speaker shop to do the work...they never sound the same as when new.
As for the 26" ribbon... just the small thing of pull the tuning bars off...did something right to my ears.....an give a sound I have never got out of any ribbon!
I say tuning bars....if there in the stock setup.. the sound has more mid.. you can hear the bass driver....an the sound stage moves forward...
with out the bars...the depth move out an back....the sound of the bass is there but dose not sound like two diff things....
Much better blinding...
Thanks for your time an input Groove...........
That's quite a statement. Can you elaborate?
For reference: If apply a DC voltage to the woofer panels on my Duetta II's I can see the entire transducer surface moving in the same direction.
Are you saying the excitation needs to be low frequency AC (below panel resonance) to view this effect?
Dave.
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The design is not wrong.
But usually the woofer serpentines are not inline with magnets, resulting in loss off effieciency.
I have actually a diva here, deviation from magnet center was 3-5 mm, since the woofer cut varied too. And all handcut woofers i ever have seen vary.
Graz CNC Cut foils i found never any measurable deviation.
But had a scintilla were the side clamps on one side differed 1 cm and both woofersideclamps L& R were so much outside the tolerance, that i was impossible to get them usable,rip them off, throw them away , Graz made new ones special for this scinnies within 10 days. So i lost a lot of work time and Graz offered the special woofers free ! Thats much more than just nice from him!
Test of movement direction for polarity is ok with DC, but for deviations and partial resonances and buzz test AC is mandatory.
No good idea to feed them with infrasonic or below panel resoncance, i cracked two new woofers this way with a little bit to much power.
But usually the woofer serpentines are not inline with magnets, resulting in loss off effieciency.
I have actually a diva here, deviation from magnet center was 3-5 mm, since the woofer cut varied too. And all handcut woofers i ever have seen vary.
Graz CNC Cut foils i found never any measurable deviation.
But had a scintilla were the side clamps on one side differed 1 cm and both woofersideclamps L& R were so much outside the tolerance, that i was impossible to get them usable,rip them off, throw them away , Graz made new ones special for this scinnies within 10 days. So i lost a lot of work time and Graz offered the special woofers free ! Thats much more than just nice from him!
Test of movement direction for polarity is ok with DC, but for deviations and partial resonances and buzz test AC is mandatory.
No good idea to feed them with infrasonic or below panel resoncance, i cracked two new woofers this way with a little bit to much power.
OK, does it help Damic?
I owned stages, very fine speakers. They didn't buzz yet. I sold them for a pair of older Duettas.
If I would have buzzing Stages, I surely would treat them with the silicone mixture.
I messured resonance frequency before and after siliconing; it barely shifted after the procedure.
In my opinion, the key is the softness (shore factor). Silicone as the only ingredient is not sufficient. It's important to mix it with silicone oil, to archive a very low shore factor.
In the attached pic, it would be between the jelly bear and the shoe inlay 🙄
Removing the stages backplates is not so complicated. Open, pour the mixture in, wait for it to dry and put the magnet plate back on it. Repeat for the front side of course.
I don't agree 'bout killing micro dynamics with this procedure. To me it's a working method.
I also have zero doubt about the longevity of this stuff. It will last forever (my claim, do your own consideration).
One point; why doesn't Graz use silicone as a damper? Of course, it's ease of work and saving costs, if one uses foam. Imo both methods work fine.
I owned stages, very fine speakers. They didn't buzz yet. I sold them for a pair of older Duettas.
If I would have buzzing Stages, I surely would treat them with the silicone mixture.
I messured resonance frequency before and after siliconing; it barely shifted after the procedure.
In my opinion, the key is the softness (shore factor). Silicone as the only ingredient is not sufficient. It's important to mix it with silicone oil, to archive a very low shore factor.
In the attached pic, it would be between the jelly bear and the shoe inlay 🙄
Removing the stages backplates is not so complicated. Open, pour the mixture in, wait for it to dry and put the magnet plate back on it. Repeat for the front side of course.
I don't agree 'bout killing micro dynamics with this procedure. To me it's a working method.
I also have zero doubt about the longevity of this stuff. It will last forever (my claim, do your own consideration).
One point; why doesn't Graz use silicone as a damper? Of course, it's ease of work and saving costs, if one uses foam. Imo both methods work fine.
Attachments
This is not a foam-versus-silicone issue/discussion anyway. Only one of those options is suitable for a system repair without incurring the large cost of tearing apart your existing system to replace the woofer transducers. 🙂
I can speak for many Apogee owners in rolling my eyes at the thought destroying a perfectly good set of woofer transducers just because the edge damping foam is deteriorated.
It's kind of like having to pay $4000.00 to drop the entire engine and drivetrain out of a Ferrari just to change the sparkplugs. 🙂
Dave.
I can speak for many Apogee owners in rolling my eyes at the thought destroying a perfectly good set of woofer transducers just because the edge damping foam is deteriorated.
It's kind of like having to pay $4000.00 to drop the entire engine and drivetrain out of a Ferrari just to change the sparkplugs. 🙂
Dave.
Some people might think you are joking! Not just Ferrari. Some fiats are engine drop to change the cambelt. Bring back the beetle, where it was just easier to drop the engine!
Apogees were no luxury products (except their biggets modells).
Take a Stage for example:
Cheap ferrit magnets, cheap steel backplate (my stages had been partly rusty),
cheap screws (also began to rust) and the most cheap stuff, the entire cardboard frame, like made from pressed paper. Oh my....
But what the heck; they sounded nice 🙂
Take a Stage for example:
Cheap ferrit magnets, cheap steel backplate (my stages had been partly rusty),
cheap screws (also began to rust) and the most cheap stuff, the entire cardboard frame, like made from pressed paper. Oh my....
But what the heck; they sounded nice 🙂
They were luxury products here in the UK! The exchange rates made them fiercely expensive bar the centaurs when compared with homegrown exotics like the QUAD ESL
You've identified the basic issue/problem. 🙂
Speakers and much other audio equipment shouldn't be luxury items.
Decent audio systems used to be affordable. Indeed, many of the Apogee models were at the time.
Nowadays you get laughed at when talking to friends/family/public about money spent for audio gear. 🙂
OTOH, excellent audio systems can still be fabricated and acquired for reasonable amounts of money. But, you have to go the DIY route and/or purchase used.
There's a reason why DIY audio and websites like this one have ballooned in popularity. 🙂
The commercial end of "high-end" audio is a disappointing industry full of all kinds of self-deception and intellectual dishonesty.
Dave.
Speakers and much other audio equipment shouldn't be luxury items.
Decent audio systems used to be affordable. Indeed, many of the Apogee models were at the time.
Nowadays you get laughed at when talking to friends/family/public about money spent for audio gear. 🙂
OTOH, excellent audio systems can still be fabricated and acquired for reasonable amounts of money. But, you have to go the DIY route and/or purchase used.
There's a reason why DIY audio and websites like this one have ballooned in popularity. 🙂
The commercial end of "high-end" audio is a disappointing industry full of all kinds of self-deception and intellectual dishonesty.
Dave.
Here in Switzerland they were always expensive, since 1988 one US $ was 4 Swiss Franks, today its almost 1:1.
This means The FR was here 28'000 CHF a pair (in USA they were 7k$), Divas 22k-, Scintillas 14k, Duetta apx 8-12 K, Stages were 6k here.😱
In those days a month salary for me as service tech was 2,8 k before taxes and insurance, so i had to work a very long time for my first scinnies and a Krell stereo 100 to drive them.
But i am still infected with Apogee Sound Reproduction. 😀
This means The FR was here 28'000 CHF a pair (in USA they were 7k$), Divas 22k-, Scintillas 14k, Duetta apx 8-12 K, Stages were 6k here.😱
In those days a month salary for me as service tech was 2,8 k before taxes and insurance, so i had to work a very long time for my first scinnies and a Krell stereo 100 to drive them.
But i am still infected with Apogee Sound Reproduction. 😀
Graz dose not make....New Stage bass foil....do any thing you can!
As for how cheap ...Most people like the sound of the Apogee speakers....but no one has coped...there bass foil type bass driver....I say why?
you can get Graz Duetta Sig new bass foils...in stalled for less then new Stages in the 90s...there worth it...you get a pr buzzers....for $500...
Cheap...............Magnepan wins.... they even make the input post for there speaker
That I like ....by the way.....most never chang there speaker wire but 2,3,times...for the time that thay have the speakers ....thay make good contack...............cost cant be much more $150 for a pr of 3.7at $5k are more.......an oh...add Duck tape.... up back of the mid on the... i.....hehe.....an I think it great....why not!....
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