As far as i understand the description the stereophile listeners did the evaluation in the same way they normally did during reviews.
The Carver Challenge | Stereophile.com
Reading the article puts a far more intelligent slant on the "Challenge", which has nothing to do with amplifiers sounding the same - rather it's that someone "skilled in the art" can adjust the distortion behaviour of their own creation to match another, which he was able to do after a number of attempts.
The telling bit is this ...
Carver claims that the original, unmodified M1.0 amplifier had been designed to sound "the way he wanted it to." If, in fact, he could make it sound any way he wished, as seemed to be proven with his success in this experiment, why then did he elect to go with a typical mid-fi "solid-state sound" instead of emulating the sound of one of the best-sounding solid-state or tubed amplifiers on the market? There were, it turns out, some good reasons.
Bob admits that he is not sure himself about the audible effects of some of the parameters he juggled to match the transfer functions of his amp to that of our reference. Had he been using this trimming technique to produce a certain desired combination of sonic qualities, using only his ears to evaluate what was going on, the task would have been quite a bit more difficult and time-consuming, the results far less predictable. This, in fact, is what he did with the 1.0 amplifier, which in his opinion still sounds excellent on the loudspeakers with which it will most likely be used (if not on the loudspeakers we used).
Secondly, Bob had never before had a chance to listen critically to a "world-class" amplifier like the one we chose as our reference, and ended up admitting that there were things about its sound that he preferred to his own amp. He might, he averred, "do some things differently in future designs."
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Are we sure about that? Is the calibation being done on a dynamic or static image - and even if the readings of static behaviour were slightly askew would the calibrator think that he had a faulty set, or merely that its behaviour was somewhat eccentric, because of less than ideal engineering, and do the best with what he had?If the device was faulty, the calibration would show that.
The "goalpost" in our cntext was, if there exist any hard experimental data that links the memory time span to the size of a difference, or that links the ability to transfer a representation of this difference to the long term memory to the size of a difference.
OK, did you try the simple demonstration I suggested?
As far as i understand the description the stereophile listeners did the evaluation in the same way they normally did during reviews.
The Carver Challenge | Stereophile.com
No, they did Carver's evaluation ears-only. Their "normal" method is to have no controls whatsoever.
edit: My apologies- this particular link was to their uncontrolled test.
"I am fine with believes as long as they are expressed as such.
But believes don´t really fit in the scientific framework."
Jakob, you are just plain argumentative or a troll.
Are you a trained psychologist?
I think the whole point I've been stressing is that any claims made about differences in sound need to be substantiated, and especially so when the effects are small.
I quoted an example above in jest - but it's actually a serious point: The CEO of a well known high end company would have us believe, without proof other than his word, that raising the cables off the ground makes a difference in the sound for the better. And then, in a further claim, the type of would block makes difference.
But believes don´t really fit in the scientific framework."
Jakob, you are just plain argumentative or a troll.
Are you a trained psychologist?
I think the whole point I've been stressing is that any claims made about differences in sound need to be substantiated, and especially so when the effects are small.
I quoted an example above in jest - but it's actually a serious point: The CEO of a well known high end company would have us believe, without proof other than his word, that raising the cables off the ground makes a difference in the sound for the better. And then, in a further claim, the type of would block makes difference.
I quoted an example above in jest - but it's actually a serious point: The CEO of a well known high end company would have us believe, without proof other than his word, that raising the cables off the ground makes a difference in the sound for the better. And then, in a further claim, the type of would block makes difference.
Why would you not accept that claim? Because you deny placebo effect? If he's claiming you'd hear an improvement then that's another matter entirely but you haven't said that's his claim.
If we can't hear any difference, and all is just imagined, then why is the exprience so different in every room I walked into at the recent CES. If we can't hear why then bother, let's step back and let the computer industry take over, after all it's so practical with the digital streaming. Or on second thought why don't we make standards for food, same thing must apply there, an orange is an orange and all oranges taste the same, that is if you eat them more than 5mins apart.
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Yup (DEQ2496) and didn't like the result.
Too slow, and too mic position dependent.
Dan.
I would worry about 1 mic covering the whole audio range. But I do think it is one area that will improve over time... If the never ending downgrading of music for mobile devices ever stops, at the rate its going we will loose the ability to hear any frequency below 60Hz in a few generations.
Why would you not accept that claim? Because you deny placebo effect? If he's claiming you'd hear an improvement then that's another matter entirely but you haven't said that's his claim.
From the website selling myrtle (sic) wood blocks:
You'll be captivated with the improved musicality these wood blocks provide.
So, yes, he is (or at least his marketing dpt is doing it for him) making a claim about what we're supposed to hear.
Are we sure about that? Is the calibation being done on a dynamic or static image - and even if the readings of static behaviour were slightly askew would the calibrator think that he had a faulty set, or merely that its behaviour was somewhat eccentric, because of less than ideal engineering, and do the best with what he had?
If my monitor is broken I would either get it fixed or buy a new one, like all tools I use in my life I go for the best I can afford and look after them. Broken devices have no role in my existence.
Arguing about possible faulty equipment is silly, if its broke fix it or bin it.
If I used one of your devices to set the box, and I was still not happy with the balance then I would immediately override them - the fidelity ultimately has to strike the right chord in my head.
Yeah, and what you'd find then is when you look at the print you made with your calibrated printer using the paper profile developed to ensure neutrality, in the daylight light box, it doesn't look the same as it did on the monitor.
I used to know guys like you who couldn't make a decent B/W print, because they couldn't follow the instructions on the bottle of developer. Not that they couldn't understand the words, just something in their psychological makeup meant they were programmed to fail, by hook or by crook.
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So, yes, he is (or at least his marketing dpt is doing it for him) making a claim about what we're supposed to hear.
That does seem an unreasonable claim to me - my own nocebo effect will guarantee I hear no improvement. I can only suggest not parting with any of the folding stuff, I most certainly shall not.
That just means that he fits into your school of thought, not mine. Of course, he could just be making a marketing statement.Jay said:Interesting to see statement such as: "The pleasure found in listening, should be our only guide". I believe that he didn't mean to say that measurement is not important...
I think that I'd want to see some data that somehow listener sensitivity to crossover distortion on program material
(assuming a good listener who can detect the differences on test signals) increases with "experience." And if so, by how much?
I suspect (and I emphasize that word!) that it will still be much higher than can be detected on sine waves.
On music with wideband frequency content, the higher frequencies "ride" on the lower and are not crossing zero
as much as they would otherwise. Thus the test music chosen will likely affect the audibility of crossover distortion.
A solo clarinet, for example, should be a good test.
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That just means that he fits into your school of thought, not mine.
Yes, very probably. Tho I don't think it should be seen as a "school of thought". Yours, your opinions, on the other hand, can be seen as a "school of thought". 😎
A solo clarinet, for example, should be a good test.
I would expect the opposite- a clarinet's waveform looks very much like a square wave, rich in high order harmonics. I'll play around with my DAW and see if it's something I can use to generate files of music with added crossover distortion.
Have a look at an oboe waveform instead. Very rounded, asymmetric, plenty of 2nd harmonic and other evens.
Source: former oboe player. (Yes your eyes really DO bug out when playing loudly)
Source: former oboe player. (Yes your eyes really DO bug out when playing loudly)
I have a clarinet, I don't have an oboe. If you want to volunteer to generate the sounds, drop me an email.
I would expect the opposite- a clarinet's waveform looks very much like a square wave, rich in high order harmonics.
The upper ranges are more sine-like.
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