Greetings All. Eric here, newbie, been playing bass since 1982. I have what I originally thought was going to be an easy question to answer, and yet, despite the fact that I have posted in several different audio forums, and sent numerous emails, no one seems to be able to give me a straight answer. So it with great hope that I post this to all of you, my new DIY brethren. Allow me to set the scene.
I own a bass 2x15 cabinet.
Each speaker is a 400-watt Carvin PS15, rated at 8 ohms/400 watts each.
The 15's are wired in parallel for a total impedance of 4 ohms.
My amp is a Crown XLS1000 Drivecore that makes 350 watts into 4 ohms.
My question, given all of the above parameters, is this:
How do I add a higher-frequency driver and/or tweeter?
I have been getting piecemeal answers about things related to how it's done, but no one has been able to spell it out for me. I have spent hours scouring the web for the answer, but all I got was a major headache.
Can any of You help me please?
I own a bass 2x15 cabinet.
Each speaker is a 400-watt Carvin PS15, rated at 8 ohms/400 watts each.
The 15's are wired in parallel for a total impedance of 4 ohms.
My amp is a Crown XLS1000 Drivecore that makes 350 watts into 4 ohms.
My question, given all of the above parameters, is this:
How do I add a higher-frequency driver and/or tweeter?
I have been getting piecemeal answers about things related to how it's done, but no one has been able to spell it out for me. I have spent hours scouring the web for the answer, but all I got was a major headache.
Can any of You help me please?
Here's part of the issue: there is very little info on that 15" driver. The Carvin website says that this is good up to 3.5k, that seems fishy if we're talking about a + - 3dB measurement. We can probably safely assume that these are good up to 1khz, so you need to fill in the rest up to 20khz.
Have you come across the "Econowave" project? Simply, you would go buy a large horn/waveguide and a compression driver. Google the project and read there.
Building a passive crossover could prove extremely difficult for someone with so little experience (I don't mean to be rude, just practical). There is a product called the MiniDSP that will do active crossovers. You run the software on your computer and connect by USB. Unfortunately this means that you would need 4 channels of amplification (woofers and tweeters are amped separately).
A very basic setup will be easy. Set the XO at about 1khz and test from there. Unfortunately, optimizing this without a measurement microphone is going to prove very difficult.
Have you come across the "Econowave" project? Simply, you would go buy a large horn/waveguide and a compression driver. Google the project and read there.
Building a passive crossover could prove extremely difficult for someone with so little experience (I don't mean to be rude, just practical). There is a product called the MiniDSP that will do active crossovers. You run the software on your computer and connect by USB. Unfortunately this means that you would need 4 channels of amplification (woofers and tweeters are amped separately).
A very basic setup will be easy. Set the XO at about 1khz and test from there. Unfortunately, optimizing this without a measurement microphone is going to prove very difficult.
Thank you, Alex. To clarify, yes indeed, I have next to no experience with regards to crossovers, but I do have over 30 years of experience with wiring electrical circuits, as I have been a licensed amateur radio operator since 1979. So if I could get my hands on a circuit design, I could easily build one. I've probably built 30 radios in my time, most of them being old-school crystal sets, and vacuum tube models.
I gather that the first issue is determining a good crossover frequency, and I believe that your suggesting of 1K is a valid one. So let us assume that this value will work well for my project. Would anyone then be able to provide a schematic and/or design if I wished to maintain the parameters I mentioned before?
1. Be able to handle over 350 watts.
2. 4 ohms to the woofers.
3. 4 or 8 ohms to the tweeter.
4. Grand total of 4 ohms to the amplifier.
5. Crossover at 1K.
I gather that the first issue is determining a good crossover frequency, and I believe that your suggesting of 1K is a valid one. So let us assume that this value will work well for my project. Would anyone then be able to provide a schematic and/or design if I wished to maintain the parameters I mentioned before?
1. Be able to handle over 350 watts.
2. 4 ohms to the woofers.
3. 4 or 8 ohms to the tweeter.
4. Grand total of 4 ohms to the amplifier.
5. Crossover at 1K.
Hi,
Adding a tweeter to a bass cabinet is not that complicated
if you take the right sort of approach which isn't the above.
Here is the response of a typical 15" driver used for bass guitar:
http://www.usspeaker.com/Delta-15A-1.htm
(They do vary, I just picked the Delta 15 as a random 400W 15" for bass guitar.)
No x/o on the bass units, x/o and level control on the tweeter.
12dB or 18dB slope x/o on the tweeter and roll it off into
the fall off region of the bass driver, here around 3.5KHz.
Here you might use this :
http://www.eminence.com/speakers/crossover-detail/?model=PXB3k5
With this :
http://www.eminence.com/speakers/supertweeter-detail/?model=APT80
or this :
http://www.eminence.com/speakers/supertweeter-detail/?model=APT150
The former is easier to squeeze into the existing cabinet.
And for good measure add an L-pad to the tweeter,
but in this particular case its not really needed, as
the tweeters are pretty ball park, and the treble
can be controlled via the amplifier I presume.
rgds, sreten.
Adding a tweeter to a bass cabinet is not that complicated
if you take the right sort of approach which isn't the above.
Here is the response of a typical 15" driver used for bass guitar:
http://www.usspeaker.com/Delta-15A-1.htm
(They do vary, I just picked the Delta 15 as a random 400W 15" for bass guitar.)
No x/o on the bass units, x/o and level control on the tweeter.
12dB or 18dB slope x/o on the tweeter and roll it off into
the fall off region of the bass driver, here around 3.5KHz.
Here you might use this :
http://www.eminence.com/speakers/crossover-detail/?model=PXB3k5
With this :
http://www.eminence.com/speakers/supertweeter-detail/?model=APT80
or this :
http://www.eminence.com/speakers/supertweeter-detail/?model=APT150
The former is easier to squeeze into the existing cabinet.
And for good measure add an L-pad to the tweeter,
but in this particular case its not really needed, as
the tweeters are pretty ball park, and the treble
can be controlled via the amplifier I presume.
rgds, sreten.
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Hi,
Just add don't use a x/o without the lamp protection,
and a 50W L-pad will protect the tweeter further if
Speaker L-Pad Attenuator 50W Mono 3/8" Shaft 8 Ohm
the 15" drivers are not as "hot" in the upper ranges
as my random example, which TBH is pretty "hot",
i.e. being random I cannot say it is average.
However I can say around 3.5KHz x/o is near average.
rgds, sreten.
Just add don't use a x/o without the lamp protection,
and a 50W L-pad will protect the tweeter further if
Speaker L-Pad Attenuator 50W Mono 3/8" Shaft 8 Ohm
the 15" drivers are not as "hot" in the upper ranges
as my random example, which TBH is pretty "hot",
i.e. being random I cannot say it is average.
However I can say around 3.5KHz x/o is near average.
rgds, sreten.
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1. No compression drivers can handle 350 watts, but I can't imagine how you'd ever use that much. If you really need that level of volume (outdoor concerts?), then go to the PA forum. You won't just be able to add a horn/tweeter - you'll need many more drivers.
2. I wouldn't be concerned about this if you're amping the low and high range separately
3. I wouldn't be concerned about this if you're amping the low and high range separately
4. Same
5. 1k is really just a ballpark, but after seeing the frequency response posted above, you're going to need some serious EQ (if that example is indeed representative of your woofers) - the response is a mess.
With regard to a schematic, I guess you could just look up a passive xo calculator and add an l-pad to the tweeter (to attenuate the volume such that it matches the woofers at 1 watt). If you have some time, there is a thread on here titled "intro to designing crossovers without measurement gear" - I'd read that, but the active setup, while more expensive, should be much easier.
I absolutely agree with the first part.
I'm a little surprised to read that it's good to 3.5k - so do you think the OP should run them to 1.5-2k then (about an octave below)? they'd be beaming pretty bad here.
I suggested doing something like an econowave - probably with an xo around 1khz. What are your thoughts on that, Sreten?
I have an 800 watt compression driver in a cabinet I bought.
It is an 400WRMS 18 inch sub + 400WRMS compression driver.
If you look on ebay thee are quite a few high power compression drivers up to 800watts (400WRMS).
It must be one of the older ones with a large (4"?) diaphragm, no? I was under the impression that most companies stopped making them for anything other than outdoor concerts because they either can't get up high enough in frequency, and if they do, they beam pretty bad. JBL doesn't even use them anymore in pro cinema speakers. Parts-express doesn't even sell CD's like this other than Pyle - but I generally assume that their posted measurements are entirely fake
I'm more interested in why the OP needs this power handling
Hi,
I'm talking bass cabinets for electric bass guitars.
Econowaves have nothing to do with with bass guitar
cabinets, a lot to do with decent vocal PA speakers.
For bass guitar only slappers and poppers
generally have any real interest in any real
treble/top end live, perhaps pluckers,
but as a fingerer I completely don't.
YMMV but i think a real top end on bass
live is a total waste of time, a subtle issue
on proper recordings, but live, pointless.
rgds, sreten.
Fender 135 Bassman amplifier and a Trace
Elliot 4x12 bass cabinet is the best rig I've
ever played through, just sublime response
to what your fingers are doing at its limits.
I'm talking bass cabinets for electric bass guitars.
Econowaves have nothing to do with with bass guitar
cabinets, a lot to do with decent vocal PA speakers.
For bass guitar only slappers and poppers
generally have any real interest in any real
treble/top end live, perhaps pluckers,
but as a fingerer I completely don't.
YMMV but i think a real top end on bass
live is a total waste of time, a subtle issue
on proper recordings, but live, pointless.
rgds, sreten.
Fender 135 Bassman amplifier and a Trace
Elliot 4x12 bass cabinet is the best rig I've
ever played through, just sublime response
to what your fingers are doing at its limits.
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Maybe it's a little different for me since I'm a guitarist, but I no longer even bother with traditional guitar amps at home (I unfortunately haven't performed in years) - I'd rather use flat PA speakers and let my DSP work it's magic for any effects - I love midi and amp simulators. They can handle any volume I want to play at and are very efficient.
Any decent compression driver with appropriate crossover will handle 350W amplifier, like Eminence PSD2002S on APT200S horn with PXB3k5 plus L-pad. Or APT 150 with some serious attenuation, just as Sreten said.
5. No need for EQ, 15" guitar bass loudspeaker is not a hi-fi but a musical instrument, the peak at 2 or 3 kHz is right on spot.
Some players want a litle more spark on top, otherwise tweeter is not needed.
Active setup is not needed, this is simple add-on tweeter, just follow the recommendation of Sreten.
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Perhaps I'm confused, because there is literally not one compression driver sold through parts-express rated to more than about 150 watts RMS - are we just talking about peaks?
Look up compression drivers on ebay.
There are quite a few Pyle units.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xcompression+driver+pyle&_nkw=compression+driver+pyle&_sacat=0
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No peaks, but full music signal (below clipping of the ampilifier). Music signal (guitar) has low RMS power at higher frequencies - there lays mostly harmonics of the fundamental note. Hence, any 80W AES power driver (like PSD2002) with crossover at 3.5kHz easily will handle 350W RMS amplifier.
I have played bass for over 20 years myself and I don't think you should overthink this. Bass-cabinets and hifi speakers are two different things. Hifi speakers are mainly supposed to sound nice, PA speakers (including bass cabinets) are mainly supposed to sound loud and clear without blowing. Hence the most important factors for a horn driver usually are sensitivity and power handling (well, it depends a little on music genre, but your 2 x 15" indicates that loudness matters to you). Some cabinets don't have high cut filters on the bass driver. Most cabinets have a L-pad adjustable attenuator and a low cut filter on the horn, mostly to reduce the risk that it blows. Typical crossover frequencies are 3-5 kHz, I would go for around 3 kHz when the other drivers are 15", a simple capacitor in series is probably enough. There are real panels available which contains both L-pad attenatuer, crossover filter, inputs and link outputs, but they are probably a little expensive.
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Hi,
No it isn't in the slightest. That = one rapidly dead tweeter, as
well as lots of distortion. CLC and a protection lamp is best,
just like the Eminence x/o I posted. The lamp will allow the
use of a tweeter that would be marginal without it fitted.
rgds, sreten.
You are probably right. I just looked up a copule of DIY-projects on the internet and they only used a single capacitor. But now I checked the filter in my bass cabinet and there it was a CLC-filter. And I have blown the tweeter once. But I use a 1000w bass head and have not always been very careful. I think no matter what filter you use it is possible to blow the tweeter, so a bit of common sense will be required anyway.
Perhaps I can wake up this thread.
I am thinking about building a bass cab for a young bassplayer as a present to practice with in the garage. But if it can be used for bar gigs its a bonus. The project depends I think if I can find used speakers for a good price.
I think 4x10 inch with tweet horn at above 5kHz would be a nice setup, any feedback on this? I saw Ampeg do it that way. Input appreciared, dont have experience of this.
I am thinking about building a bass cab for a young bassplayer as a present to practice with in the garage. But if it can be used for bar gigs its a bonus. The project depends I think if I can find used speakers for a good price.
I think 4x10 inch with tweet horn at above 5kHz would be a nice setup, any feedback on this? I saw Ampeg do it that way. Input appreciared, dont have experience of this.
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