I have owned my DQ10's since the early eighties and after some 35 years I have replaced and upgraded almost every component including drivers, redesigned crossover, capacitors and wiring. However I have yet to find a 5" midbase driver to replace the 5" 4ohm Philips woofer which is now the weak link in the system. I have read on some sites that some had good results with Dayton Audio RS125-8 5" Woofer. Looking at Madisound's website it appears that a Scanspeak 15M/4624G might be a good fit. It is important that this driver has a linear response up to 10k where it blends in with a HF1 Sequerra ribbon tweeter.
I would appreciate advise, incl. crossover change, from those who have successfully replaced this driver.
I would appreciate advise, incl. crossover change, from those who have successfully replaced this driver.
The Dayton RS125-8 5" looks nothing like a ""linear response"" driver.
Dayton Audio RS125-8 5" Reference Woofer 8 Ohm
The references to the 5" driver range (low-mid-range) is from 400 to 1000Hz, maybe a first order (L1=1.27mH) to the mid-range soft dome.
https://bspace.berkeley.edu/access/content/user/228605/Dahlquist/DQ-10-crossover.jpg
Dayton Audio RS125-8 5" Reference Woofer 8 Ohm
The references to the 5" driver range (low-mid-range) is from 400 to 1000Hz, maybe a first order (L1=1.27mH) to the mid-range soft dome.
https://bspace.berkeley.edu/access/content/user/228605/Dahlquist/DQ-10-crossover.jpg
Attachments
Philips AD5060/W4 5" replacements
Some more drivers to add to your list:
...others e.g., Audax, Peerless, Vifas
Scanspeak 15M/4624G (already mentioned)
Tang Band W5-1685 5" Underhung Midbass Driver | 264-873 pdf
FOCAL 5W3211B
SEAS Prestige CA15RLY (H1216) 5.5" Coated Paper Cone Woofer
AUDAX HM130Z10
BEYMA 5MP60/N
Aurum Cantus AC-130F1 5-1/4" Woofer | 296-400
Peerless HDS 5.25" Midwoofer 830991
Vifa PL14WJ-09-08 Mid Woofer
Vifa 14NE240/4 pdf
Some more drivers to add to your list:
...others e.g., Audax, Peerless, Vifas
Scanspeak 15M/4624G (already mentioned)
Tang Band W5-1685 5" Underhung Midbass Driver | 264-873 pdf
FOCAL 5W3211B
SEAS Prestige CA15RLY (H1216) 5.5" Coated Paper Cone Woofer
AUDAX HM130Z10
BEYMA 5MP60/N
Aurum Cantus AC-130F1 5-1/4" Woofer | 296-400
Peerless HDS 5.25" Midwoofer 830991
Vifa PL14WJ-09-08 Mid Woofer
Vifa 14NE240/4 pdf
I forgot to mention that I removed the dome tweeter altogether and replaced the dome midrange with a Dynaudio D54 2" dome (with its own separate network). The treble control is set to the max (replaced by resistors) in order for the midbass to be linear up to 10k. This is how Dick Sequerra designed the HF1 ribbon tweeter to mate with the DQ10.
FWIW, provided sensitivity isn't too much of a problem (how could it not be with a 5-way? ), I've found several Vifas to be very easy to work with - very benign FR in the bandwidth involved here.
But as I recall, the original DQ10 had two dome drivers between the Philips cone and the Motorola Piezo, so if this new "mid-bass" will be passing off directly to a ribbon tweeter at 10K, it sounds like you've not just "upgraded parts", but completely re-engineered the system's operating parameters. That's of course a perfectly acceptable choice, but I wonder if the off-axis response above 2-2.5K that several of the candidates exhibit might cause some issues. Perhaps you might want to consider a wider bandwidth "Full-Range" driver, such as Alpair 10.3 - the metal driver's "immediacy" might be a more synchronous match with a ribbon than a paper cone, Fostex FE108ESigma, or Scanspeak 10F
), I've found several Vifas to be very easy to work with - very benign FR in the bandwidth involved here. But as I recall, the original DQ10 had two dome drivers between the Philips cone and the Motorola Piezo, so if this new "mid-bass" will be passing off directly to a ribbon tweeter at 10K, it sounds like you've not just "upgraded parts", but completely re-engineered the system's operating parameters. That's of course a perfectly acceptable choice, but I wonder if the off-axis response above 2-2.5K that several of the candidates exhibit might cause some issues. Perhaps you might want to consider a wider bandwidth "Full-Range" driver, such as Alpair 10.3 - the metal driver's "immediacy" might be a more synchronous match with a ribbon than a paper cone, Fostex FE108ESigma, or Scanspeak 10F
Wow. I actually think the DQ10 midbass is one of the unsung heroes of that speaker. Mine use original drivers, but a completely redone crossover, added sound deadening to the woofer enclosure, and rewired. I wouldn't change a thing!!!
Incidentally, if you are looking for a replacement for the dome midrange, find a vintage Heco poly dome. The sound is a dead ringer for the original. I have since repaired my original, but the Heco is a good backup.
Incidentally, if you are looking for a replacement for the dome midrange, find a vintage Heco poly dome. The sound is a dead ringer for the original. I have since repaired my original, but the Heco is a good backup.
Hi,
Do you know the reference (and impedance) for your drivers, are they the
Advent woofer
Phillips AD5060 /W4 or AD5062 (is it 4Ohms?)
1.5" dome
.75" dome
Piezo (supertweeter)
Basically and I'm guessing here and I don't know if they are the same drivers, a AD5062/Sq without the plastic enclosure cup would give a low-mid-range (/W). Are they all 4Ohms or are they 8Ohms drivers (Dahlquist DQ-10) also with different crossover?! The speaker is 6Ohms (nominal) with min impedance 4Ohms.
And what about your revamped crossover?!
ScanSpeak Classic D2010/8513
http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-84-22423.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/41736-drivers-used-dahlquist-dq-10-a.html
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I have a very detailed rebuild thread here:
Baco99 DQ-10 rebuild with images and comments, AudioKarma
I'll have to double check on the exact model of the midrange cone driver.
I guess different Philips models have been used during time (with different crossovers?). Most mentioned as midwoofer of the DQ-10 is the Philips AD5060/W8, which actually is 8 ohm:
Whoa! ...and dogs most love Dahlquist loudspeakers by the blue pillow(?!)
Was the "Rectilinear Research Corporation" the Pre-Dahlquist corporation?
Rectilinear Research Corporation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Lautsprecher ? Wikipedia
That era involved a lot of communication amongst designers and engineers. Not like today. Dahlquist was an ongoing interest until the late 1990s. Now all of the assets are owned by Regnar. Rectilinear was never officially affiliated with Dahlquist IIRC.
And the dog bed has since moved, you'll see in later pictures.
And the dog bed has since moved, you'll see in later pictures.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Did you ever try a Scan speak d3806 instead of the Dynaudio? It has the same dome diameter as the original and can go to 13k where a ribbon could take over.
I consider the DQ10 to be one of the best speaker designs ever and about the 40 or so I have owned (bought or built) the DQ10's and the ESB 07/06 are the only speakers I have kept. What intrigued me from the beginning when I bought my speakers in 1980 was how the DQ10 could sound so spacious and project such a soundstage. I have ever since improved my speakers as I mentioned in my previous post but I have yet to find the perfect mid bass - dome midrange combination of drivers. After starting on this journey I soon realized what an ingenious design DQ10 was, especially when using at best mediocre drivers, even by standards of the early seventies.
I have, with my Clio system, measured the DQ10 and each single driver individually, with and without the crossover, and came to realize what an ingenious design it is. The key drivers are the Philips 5" mid bass coupler and the Peerless 1 1/2" dome midrange. They have both an irregular response and a fairly high distortion when playing loud and they lack dynamics when compared to modern high end drivers.
The Philips mid bass has a spike at around 10kHz and the Peerless dome has a 5db wide dip at 4 kHz ( See pic 1 and 2 below showing the Peerless with and without network). However when measured individually connected to the crossover they are both, thanks to crossover network, more linear and both cover the range 800 Hz - 12 kHz (the mid bass spike still remains) however with reversed polarity. The fact that these two drivers work in parallel, however in opposite phase, and combined with a time delay (from the listeners perspective unless the speaker is pointing directly at the listener) is the key to the illusion of the 3D-spaciousness the DQ10 projects, a trick some other designers have tried to copy but not with the same success.
My goal has been to replace these two drivers with modern high end drivers. I have already replaced the tweeter and the piezo tweeter with a HF-1 Sequerra ribbon tweeter, mounted on top of the grille, and this improves the speaker substantially although the high end is now substantially more transparent and dynamic than the midrange. My next step was to replace the Peerless mid dome with a Dynaudio D54 (with a separate crossover) which in my opinion is the best sounding mid dome there is (See pic 4 below - D54 without network). (maybe with exception to the ATC 3" dome driver). I don't think the D54 is available from Dynaudio anymore since they stopped selling raw drivers.
My only problem with the D54 the frequency range because it cuts off at 6500 Hz. Even with this shortcoming it brought my system substantially closer to nirvana. I may need to augment this driver with a Scanspeak 3806 1 1/2" dome to cover the range up to 12k. The Scanspeak 3806 is an excellent driver but it cuts off too high in the low end to be used as a single replacement.
After researching the market I have only found two 1 1/2 drivers that cover the frequency range of the old Peerless:
Mavin DS-1 1 1/2" dome from Electro Mavin. They claim a range of 300-10,000 Hz but don't show a response curve.
Tang Band 50-1426S 2" dome. Has a ruler straight response curve but no longer available from Parts Express.
Tang Band 50-1933S 2" dome. New product to replace 50-1426S.(see pic 3 below)
In search of a suitable mid bass driver, without the harshness exhibited by the 5060 AD at 10 kHz,I have been looking at some designs and thanks to Inductor I have been introduced to some more. From studying the specs and response curves I have narrowed down the candidates to the following:
Scanspeak 15M/4624G
Tang Band W5-1685
Focal 5W3211B
Beyma 5MP60/N
VIFA 14 NE 240/4
I am very interested for advise from those with any experience from any of the above drivers and especially used in a DQ10.
I have, with my Clio system, measured the DQ10 and each single driver individually, with and without the crossover, and came to realize what an ingenious design it is. The key drivers are the Philips 5" mid bass coupler and the Peerless 1 1/2" dome midrange. They have both an irregular response and a fairly high distortion when playing loud and they lack dynamics when compared to modern high end drivers.
The Philips mid bass has a spike at around 10kHz and the Peerless dome has a 5db wide dip at 4 kHz ( See pic 1 and 2 below showing the Peerless with and without network). However when measured individually connected to the crossover they are both, thanks to crossover network, more linear and both cover the range 800 Hz - 12 kHz (the mid bass spike still remains) however with reversed polarity. The fact that these two drivers work in parallel, however in opposite phase, and combined with a time delay (from the listeners perspective unless the speaker is pointing directly at the listener) is the key to the illusion of the 3D-spaciousness the DQ10 projects, a trick some other designers have tried to copy but not with the same success.
My goal has been to replace these two drivers with modern high end drivers. I have already replaced the tweeter and the piezo tweeter with a HF-1 Sequerra ribbon tweeter, mounted on top of the grille, and this improves the speaker substantially although the high end is now substantially more transparent and dynamic than the midrange. My next step was to replace the Peerless mid dome with a Dynaudio D54 (with a separate crossover) which in my opinion is the best sounding mid dome there is (See pic 4 below - D54 without network). (maybe with exception to the ATC 3" dome driver). I don't think the D54 is available from Dynaudio anymore since they stopped selling raw drivers.
My only problem with the D54 the frequency range because it cuts off at 6500 Hz. Even with this shortcoming it brought my system substantially closer to nirvana. I may need to augment this driver with a Scanspeak 3806 1 1/2" dome to cover the range up to 12k. The Scanspeak 3806 is an excellent driver but it cuts off too high in the low end to be used as a single replacement.
After researching the market I have only found two 1 1/2 drivers that cover the frequency range of the old Peerless:
Mavin DS-1 1 1/2" dome from Electro Mavin. They claim a range of 300-10,000 Hz but don't show a response curve.
Tang Band 50-1426S 2" dome. Has a ruler straight response curve but no longer available from Parts Express.
Tang Band 50-1933S 2" dome. New product to replace 50-1426S.(see pic 3 below)
In search of a suitable mid bass driver, without the harshness exhibited by the 5060 AD at 10 kHz,I have been looking at some designs and thanks to Inductor I have been introduced to some more. From studying the specs and response curves I have narrowed down the candidates to the following:
Scanspeak 15M/4624G
Tang Band W5-1685
Focal 5W3211B
Beyma 5MP60/N
VIFA 14 NE 240/4
I am very interested for advise from those with any experience from any of the above drivers and especially used in a DQ10.
Attachments
tkollen, you don't mention (for some reason) Beyma MC115 dome midrange. What do you think from the spec-sheets?!
Dahlquist PATENTS 1974-1975
http://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US3824343.pdf
http://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US3927261.pdf
Can you post the T/S parameters for the Philips 5" ? so that we have a better understanding of the driver.
On the 10" Advent Factory OEM Woofer there is in fact no substitute of this unique driver. All the possible candidates are 15" (GPA, TAD link, link), 18" (PD 186), 21" (18Sound) or exotics like this Davis Acoustics 31TCA12W (12") link
Dahlquist PATENTS 1974-1975
http://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US3824343.pdf
http://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US3927261.pdf
Can you post the T/S parameters for the Philips 5" ? so that we have a better understanding of the driver.
On the 10" Advent Factory OEM Woofer there is in fact no substitute of this unique driver. All the possible candidates are 15" (GPA, TAD link, link), 18" (PD 186), 21" (18Sound) or exotics like this Davis Acoustics 31TCA12W (12") link
Further research ( tests and comparisons on the internet ) incl. listening and testing has made me revise the candidate list for mid-domes somewhat. The list is based on potential linearity between 1k - 10k and low distortion.
1. ATC SC75 150
2. Accuton C44
3. Tangband 1558
4. Dayton RS52
5. Visaton G 50 FFL
6. Morel MDM 1308
I know for sure that a 2" driver may work but I don't know yet about a 3" driver like ATC and Tangband yet. The dome-midrange baffle is positioned low and is recessed on the top of the DQ10 bass box. This means that the downwards sound waves from the dome are being reflected upwards by this shelf ( another neat trick by Jon ). If I bring this panel flush with the bass box panel then the sound stage becomes flat and collapses. The height of the dome above the bass box is also very important.
The ATC driver may or may not be worth the money (even if I can find a pair on eBay). and it depends on whether I can mate a 3" driver with the DQ10.
A comparison between TangBand 1558 and Dayton RS52 in a recent German magazine showed the somewhat more expensive TangBand superior to the Dayton RS52 in most regards. In fact the TangBand seems to rival or even surpass ATC in some regards. However both these drivers are excellent with low distortion, both linear and unlinear. My problem with Dayton may be to trim a nasty 10 dB peak around 13 kHz.
I already own the Accuton C44, an almost perfect linear driver when used up to 6 kHz. Above that it sound a little edgy but maybe that can be trimmed out in combination with the right 5" mid-bass.
Regarding Visaton, Morel and now Beyma MC115 I don't know very much about them. I know the Visaton is an old design, the Morel 1308 is a very new design and seems to improve on the older MDM 55.
Some of these drivers measure reasonably straight all the way to 10 kHz, some start to drop at ca. 6 kHz with a more or less gradual downward slope, something that can be corrected in the crossover design , by using the rising impedance in the area 5kHz-10kHz.
Beyma MC115 maybe a good candidate but seem to exhibit a sharp shelf around 5k, maybe this can be corrected. Now, measurements may look different if the drivers are installed on a DQ10 type baffle. I don't know very much about the Beyma brand. Inductor, how in your opinion does the Beyma sound and measure distortion wise when compared to the other drivers on my list?
The Philips 5060 is installed on an open baffle (with felt on the back and no box loading). To what use would the T/S parameters be since most published response curves are based on open baffle measurements?
I agree that the Advent woofer is unique and can not be replaced. I wish it had rubber surround since I had the foam replaced 3 times by now.
Looking forward to hearing from anyone with experience from one or several of these drivers.
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