John, with identical drivers on identical signals, there will not be a problem. However, separate enclosures can still make good sense for structural reasons and suppression of standing waves.
What about Ji LeSurf's IQ test - could this be used for measuring microsecond delays between channels? The IQ-Test
Using a generated IQ signal - the left channel used as the ‘I’ channel and the right as the ‘Q’ channel. i.e. The left channel was a sinewave and the right a cosine wave, sharing the same frequency and waveform peak amplitude. Variations in timing are analysed through software - no expensive measuring equipment required
As usual Frank you managed to sidestep the direct answer by writing mumbo jumbo
How can we NOT ignore what you saying because you NEVER tell us what it is you actually do?🙄 Not one single example of how you change a component to make it sound better. I myself think that the man weakness in your system is you, yourself.
It may be good for sines, but it fails miserably for the target stimulus....music.
Were I to try to test a system for time coherence, I would use music, I would use major power (not led zeppelin power, but perhaps daft punk's "lucky"), I would look for channel to channel differences for material which is interchannel partially coherent, images which share the channels.
Testing a ground loop is looking for the effects of power draw as it affects the input circuitry. Looking for haversines, gated modulated absolute value of music current, simple phase shifts as the bass content traverses output quadrants, they all fall outside the domain of a simple sine analysis..
Honestly, I'd use my ears. Or, one of the test setups I posed in my gallery.
edit: ps. Nice find, thank you. Jim's a pretty good source.
jn
I'm not sure I understand why? Timing differences between channels, from what I understand of your posts, is a function of the difference in arrival time of different frequencies in the speaker wires determined by the impedance of the wires. I believe your test for this being to change one speaker wire's impedance significantly & observe the central image shift (if any) when the same signal is fed into both channels. The IQ test can be run at any frequency & is designed to measure timing differences of microseconds & lower. I can't see the need for a music signal - in fact I'd imagine that it over-complicates the measurement problem.
I didn't think this related to grounds loops but rather transmission line considerations at audio frequencies & the possible affects of line impedance?
Just thought it would be a useful measurement technique, maybe requiring a bit of lateral thinking or tweaking the test?
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Okay, ignoring the fact that I have very specifically mentioned on numerous occasions what I've looked into, I'll mention a few things again ...
The weaknesses are what it's all about - nearly all gear is good enough in key areas to get the job done, so defining the areas lacking is where the action is. And what's lacking is mostly covered by: poor connections; inadequate power supplies; susceptibility to inteference from mains power noise, RF muck, and the operation of the other components in the system; susceptibility to vibration; static effects. What is also relevant is warm-up, conditioning time - cheaper gear always benefits from being given a solid workout, before you take the sound seriously ...
As a simple example, the latest tweaking was fixing up the PC monitor speakers - from a cold start the sound from these was very ordinary, midfi dross most would rate it as. Lately, they were getting worse, the crummy pots in them were really deteriorating, just touch a knob and all sorts of crud could be heard. So, pulled the units apart - and first step was to bypass the wiper mechanisms: hardwire a short circuit across what was nominally the zero resistance end, the actual pot resistance was left in place; also shorted out the on/off switch - every contact is a weakness! Ripped off the power in, and second speaker connectors, and hard wired the cables directly to the PC board. Finally, for both full-range speakers cut off the push-on tags, tightly wound their cables and soldered them on. Where the cables were loose and could rattle against things I used simple hot glue to secure them.
Put them back together, immediately a huge improvement - from cold, treble was very decent, a typical classical recording was very listenable to, rather than being dead in the water as was the case before. Very simple process, with highly audible results ...
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Oh brother . So you did what any person with some sense would do and made sure the connections and switches either worked as planned or you bypassed them and that's it?
Sorry but that doesn't give you a "huge improvement" it just gives you the sound that the engineers who designed it put into it.
The other things you mentioned earlier is the same old repeat.....repeat........repeat that you have done since day one with zero examples of a component with a before and after result. We could take all of your posts on here and condense them into maybe 10 or less and get the same thing over and over.
Whatever, I'm done responding to the windy day.
Sorry but that doesn't give you a "huge improvement" it just gives you the sound that the engineers who designed it put into it.
The other things you mentioned earlier is the same old repeat.....repeat........repeat that you have done since day one with zero examples of a component with a before and after result. We could take all of your posts on here and condense them into maybe 10 or less and get the same thing over and over.
Whatever, I'm done responding to the windy day.
How do the "IEC inlet filters with earth line choke" (e.g. Schaffner FN9222E ) get used? for data see http://schaffner.com/en/products/da...e-iec-inlet-filter-with-earth-line-choke.html
But the big problem is that 99% of the time "any person with some sense" doesn't do what's needed - it's like all the unfit, overweight people around who have a home gym, somewhere on their property ... why are they in bad shape? Because, they don't bloody use it!!
Every time I listen to a typical audio system, in a person's home or wherever, the aural smell of what "any person with some sense" hasn't done is in the air - the big word here is "followthrough" ...
It sounds to me like you're just waiting for that magic bullet to arrive, that will fix everything up, without you putting any effort into it - well, guess what, it ain't gonna happen ...
I'll try another analogy, just for laughs ...
You have a space capsule, which develops a slow leak in certain situations - you can:
a) Tell the astronauts to suck it up, just breath faster - actually, it's all in their head that they perceive a problem
b) Double the thickness of the capsule door - obviously it's very important, so if you make it more rugged then that might make a difference
c) Say we haven't got the time or interest to sort it out, so we will build a complete, new, extra shell on the outside of the current one, that should fix it!
d) Carefully, very carefully, go around all the seals to the exterior, and find the one tiny incompatibility of materials which is causing a tiny crack to develop under certain conditions
Take your pick, 😉 ...
You have a space capsule, which develops a slow leak in certain situations - you can:
a) Tell the astronauts to suck it up, just breath faster - actually, it's all in their head that they perceive a problem
b) Double the thickness of the capsule door - obviously it's very important, so if you make it more rugged then that might make a difference
c) Say we haven't got the time or interest to sort it out, so we will build a complete, new, extra shell on the outside of the current one, that should fix it!
d) Carefully, very carefully, go around all the seals to the exterior, and find the one tiny incompatibility of materials which is causing a tiny crack to develop under certain conditions
Take your pick, 😉 ...
Dear world and Frank. Be aware that if you actually have an issue with your gear that can audibly be improved, it is either due to your speakers-room interface or very obsolete or inadaquate power slash electronics. Yes, it is that simple. Please remit some money to this forum for this advice. Thank you.
What needs to "audibly be improved" varies between people of course, 🙂. If one's thing is 'perfect' frequency and phase response then just apply enough DSP grunt to sort that out, it's a solved problem. If you want room shattering volumes - and I mean that literally - then just apply quality pro speakers and decent amplication - an individual called Basspig has got the answers there ...
Personally, I find low level distortion, modulation noise, to be the real villain - and so far I haven't found room interfaces, perceiving obsolesence, or money to be much help ... 😛
Personally, I find low level distortion, modulation noise, to be the real villain - and so far I haven't found room interfaces, perceiving obsolesence, or money to be much help ... 😛
O.M.G.
A cuppla points.
1 - when I consider what I define as a tweak or improvement, I don't include repairs to damaged/defective sub-standard equipment in my considerations. Thats just repair.
2 - The fact that you have chosen to bypass as switch or glue in a rattling wire is not a change to the design or operational parameters of the device. It does fall into the range somewhere between "bodged repair", and "super-cheap construction correction". None, bar none of your repairs described will have changed the operational outcome of the speakers compared to their operation in standard but fully operational configuration
3 - Of course stuff sounds better when you have fixed obvious, wear and tear related faults. By definition almost, a faulty item will not perform to its specification and hence will be sub-optimal.
3a - Having effected a repair to your own satisfaction, it is a psychological certainty that you will be impressed, generally far beyond the reality of the outcome. This is true in audio, automotive, marine, home decorating, bedroom gymnastics.... etc etc etc.
Said in love and respect.
Thanks for clearing up what you consider to be tweaking and optimisation. It gives a much clearer picture of your modus operandi which should assist the discussion.
.
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That's where you, and others, unfortunately, are missing the point. I do not aim to change the "design or operational parameters of the device", except in areas which normal measurements don't typically pick up! I do aim to correct subtle deficiences in the implementation of the devices, in areas which make all the difference to the subjective perception of the sound!
And this is where you're wrong, so wrong. In standard form, all those deficient connections would be part of the circuit, compromising the quality. The fact that they might be 'new' means absolutely nothing, they're still damaging the sound - probably only an exercise of comparing a standard, new unit, and one that has been heavily modified will get the message through - the differences aren't earth shattering, it's the difference between sound that draws you in, makes you want to keep listening, vs. something that is boring and irritating to listen to after 5 minutes of doing so ... if that sort of thing is not important to you then nothing I say will be of any use ...
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Less measurable distortion, class a as far as possible, big efficient speakers to keep it all there.
That's close to being downright rude, sorry to say - I was asked for a simple example, I gave a simple example - which happened to be current. If that's the level of intelligence being applied to what I say, then what can I do ... 😕😕 ?
How do you know they (the switches etc) are deficient (from new)? And if they are deficient, how do you know it is enough to affect the audio quality? Especially in an item as fundamentally compromised as a computer speaker?
See point 3a above.
This chap called Basspig has got it under control, he uses highly conventional amps in a configuration such that even at deafening levels they're barely operating beyond idle - so full throttle is still always class A - this is a man who can be quite disappointed listening to real pipe organs, he considers them rather wishy washy at times ...
Sorry you think that. It was meant quite innocently. If I and others can understand your point of view and approach, we can better understand why you make the claims and understand the things you discuss as you do.
By you - I mean anyone. Same applies to me.
My apologies if it came across otherwise.
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