Hello !
a clear definition maybe cannot be found easily
For me imaging is to put on a recording, listening with eyes shut and feeling to be in the place during the recording event.
The system must act like a Star Trek Transporter 😱
Not easy to achieve but for me this is the mission 🙂
Regarding the ability of a system to reproduce a good soundstage i once believed that small speakers were more apt to do this.
But then i listened to these ones and i changed my belief.
In a good system they disappeared sonically, but not physcally of course.
Kind regards,
gino
a clear definition maybe cannot be found easily
For me imaging is to put on a recording, listening with eyes shut and feeling to be in the place during the recording event.
The system must act like a Star Trek Transporter 😱
Not easy to achieve but for me this is the mission 🙂
Regarding the ability of a system to reproduce a good soundstage i once believed that small speakers were more apt to do this.
But then i listened to these ones and i changed my belief.
In a good system they disappeared sonically, but not physcally of course.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Kind regards,
gino
😀 It's unfortunately a minefield, which is why this thread is still running! edit: as soon as there is any subjective element involved I can't see that it can be any other way.
Tony.
Tony.
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When you get the full strength 3D effect, these terms do become irrelevant - they are just an interim means of describing the aural sensations while getting closer to the goal, of convincing reproduction. With the latter the sound field completely takes over, dominates the listening space - as some have said, when they listen to a live performance the word soundstage never enters their thinking ...
@Gino,
That speaker could'nt disappear sonically even if it was painted with invisible paint .. 🙂
That speaker could'nt disappear sonically even if it was painted with invisible paint .. 🙂
Agree , a good Soundstage is a necessary recording effect . If not for , we lose the illusional of "live". It's not part of a live performance.
Hello ! this is what i thought myself 🙄
Instead ... 😱
It was extremely unnerving because of course i was seeing these big counter desks but i was not able to localize the sound in the speakers.
The sound was coming from the space literally.
My old belief was the only small minimonitor could do this.
Amazing
Kind regards,
gino
P.S. instead the "transporter" effect is easier to get listening in the dark through headphones and the right binaural recording ... also amazing experience
Sorry ... which terms ?
I have to say that when a good 3D effect is achieved the experience is nothing short than astonishing. 😱
For me there is nothing better than this. 🙂
For istance the effect of the front wall collapsing like opening a window on the concert hall .... ahahah
And needless to say that my system is far far far ... from this. 😱
Kind regards, gino
Imaging, soundstaging, palpability, etc, etc ...
Very pleased to come across another person who "gets" it, 🙂. As you've experienced, the type of speaker is not what it's about - the full 3D is a result of system tune, and nothing to do with what the components in the system are, apart from from the fact that better intrinsic quality of an individual component certainly helps!
The good news is, that essentially all systems can achieve it, provided someone is prepared to fiddle with it enough. I can say that with conviction, because I've managed to get there, at times, with a variety of cheaper and cheaper gear when I pull out all the stops, 😀.
The real point is that one should be able to buy that capability off the shelf, but we are a long way from that, as yet ...
Hello yes i agree again and completely
And yes as you say is a result of system tuning (like less noise reaching the system from the mains, just to say one)
And yes again even cheap equipment can give this sensation.
I have to say that gettin depth is not an easy task
But at least for stereo i have a little story
I was watching a movie listening with the stereo system.
The dialogues were so centered in the tv that i was thinking to be listening really from the tv speakers (that of course where completely silent )
Even better ... from the glass of the tv directly.
... and the L and R speakers seeemed completely disconnected from the system so that i checked the cables !
The depth by the way is more difficult. Good imaging on the speakers plane but for the depth some more tricks are necessary.
And depth of course is even more fascinating ...
Thanks again and kind regards,
gino
And yes as you say is a result of system tuning (like less noise reaching the system from the mains, just to say one)
And yes again even cheap equipment can give this sensation.
I have to say that gettin depth is not an easy task
But at least for stereo i have a little story
I was watching a movie listening with the stereo system.
The dialogues were so centered in the tv that i was thinking to be listening really from the tv speakers (that of course where completely silent )
Even better ... from the glass of the tv directly.
... and the L and R speakers seeemed completely disconnected from the system so that i checked the cables !
The depth by the way is more difficult. Good imaging on the speakers plane but for the depth some more tricks are necessary.
And depth of course is even more fascinating ...
Thanks again and kind regards,
gino
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Re-reading Toole. I get more out of it every time. He just about has me convinced to build a center for my movie room. I had one in my living room, but it was so badly matched ( thank you Paradigm) it is far better without it. As I built my movie room speakers, I can reproduce their voice. I may revisit the rears again. I am forced to have them only a few feet from our heads. Way too point source.
Depth tricks: Selected narrow bands of mid-range boosted will raise the image. I did not find cutting them to drop the image. Depth I don't know. Phase combinations? I heard one of the fancy Polk artificial image jobs playing a Grover Washington cut. It sounded like he was running fore and aft on the stage. Comical.
Depth tricks: Selected narrow bands of mid-range boosted will raise the image. I did not find cutting them to drop the image. Depth I don't know. Phase combinations? I heard one of the fancy Polk artificial image jobs playing a Grover Washington cut. It sounded like he was running fore and aft on the stage. Comical.
Yes, boring old TV transmissions can have astoundingly good sound replay quality if one is willing to go the yards. But the processing would need to be done in separate boxes normally, too much cross interference with the video circuits otherwise.
Interestingly, even a bare bones TV in itself, with tiny speakers, can do very good sound if you shut down all the video processing. I did this recently, on a cheap set, source was a separate Blu-ray player playing CDs, feeding in via HDMI. Remarkably, with sufficient warmup, conditioning and other simple measures this nothing TV with nondescript standard electronics was able to do dramatic levels of depth, the "soundstage", 🙂, was coming from way behind the TV itself, with a very good sense of space ...
Hello just to precise that in that case i was sending only the composite video to the tv and the sound to the stereo system.
It was quite some years ago.
I could do the same now using hdmi for video and digital out for audio with the pc. I do not know if this is possible with a dvd player.
well if the speakers are low quality the sound is very inadequate, like in my case ... the embedded speakers are ridiculous and so the sound
Maybe with betters tv the sound could be acceptable for better internal speakers
well if you give me the brand and the model i am curious
I have to say that with my present Panasonic tv fed through hdmi and the sound taken out from the line rca of the tv the sound with the stereo is not offending. I can listen to it without be annoyed.
I have tried also the optical digi out from the tv with pretty much the same results.
But my feeling is that it would be better to send to the tv only the video and the sound directly from the source to the stereo system
Some players like the Oppo are said to be a great sound both from digital and analogue outs.
I do not have the Oppo, unfortunately.
But i remember good sound also from a Samsung dvd player.
Thanks again and kind regards,
gino
Frank , Maybe your imagination is better than most ...🙂
One's expectations and experiences determines acceptability and then of course type and level of speakers necessary to get that job done ..
No, I would say my experience is better than most in this key area, by a big margin ... I know exactly what I'm looking for, in SQ terms, and I know largely how to get it, 🙂.
You keep forgetting that I very deliberately exposed myself to 'high quality' system over quite some time, I know exactly how they typically sound, and the usual deficiencies they exhibit - the latter factors completely undermine the real potential they have ...
It's like going for a ride in someone's Ferrari, the owner is wetting his pants with excitement at how magnificent his acquisition is - I on the other hand am wondering why he hasn't noticed that a spark plug lead has fallen off and the engine sounds terrible, and am hoping the ride stops soon because of the car's vibrations from one of the wheels being out of balance ...
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The components are Aldi, just anonymous Chinese products - it's not so much what they are, but knowing precisely what to do with each unit to get the best out of it - which will vary greatly with each brand and product model. All largely determined by trial and error - and patience, 😀!
Switching on this TV from cold in the normal way, the sound is the typical flat, bland TV thing - anyone listening at this point would have zero confidence in getting anything worthwhile from it. Persistence, and confidence that better can be achieved are a large part of the battle ...
Thanks again for the advice.
I believe in let's say "tuning" the system of course.
And also to me it has happened sometimes to find humble piece of hifi that sound quite above the expectations based on price or aspect.
And i also believe a lot in modding.
Even only addressing connections quality and improve it can give a remarkable boost to sound quality.
Kind regards,
gino
Yes, 'humbleness' means nothing in terms of the quality that can be extracted - in one sense, expensive gear is the worst type to be dealt with, because all sorts of weird and wonderful things may have been done in the design and construction of the beast; the more expensive, the more idiosyncratic the end result is often - and to circumvent or modify what needs to be dealt with could be downright hard! And of course, the value of a piece of audio jewellery plummets on the 2nd hand market if it's known to be fiddled with - much better to build on straightforward, reasonably priced goods ...
With the TV, very simple things can be done:
* Disable every bit of fancy processing that the set does on the fly, try and turn it into a really dumb, just displaying the raw video, box. With my TV, I freeze the display when playing audio, it's now just a photo display frame.
* Give the TV the cleanest mains you can by, say, devoting a spur just to the set
* Warmup is everything on cheap gear; wind up the volume as loud as you dare and let it rip for an hour or so - don't bother taking any notice of what it sounds like during this period, will be pretty terrible at first. After it's stabilised from a solid workout, then have another careful listen ...
With the TV, very simple things can be done:
* Disable every bit of fancy processing that the set does on the fly, try and turn it into a really dumb, just displaying the raw video, box. With my TV, I freeze the display when playing audio, it's now just a photo display frame.
* Give the TV the cleanest mains you can by, say, devoting a spur just to the set
* Warmup is everything on cheap gear; wind up the volume as loud as you dare and let it rip for an hour or so - don't bother taking any notice of what it sounds like during this period, will be pretty terrible at first. After it's stabilised from a solid workout, then have another careful listen ...
You do have hard evidence (e.g. a woman in the kitchen) that the sound actually does improve after this warmup? Otherwise nasty cynical people might just think that your ears were being acclimatised to the sound, or being relieved when the volume is turned down.fas42 said:
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