😱......
....er OK..😀BUT...BUT....but...😕
You can't beat a good tune...<<<but it must have soundstage...🙄
The depth..the feel...the shear wonder and excitement.
😀<<<<good on films though.
Regards
M. Gregg
This is a most interesting thread. When first reading the posts, my gut reaction was that "soundstage" as being discussed was just more ********, a term co-opted by audio marketers to help them hype expensive products without making claims that could perhaps easily be disproven, or that we're no better than their competitors.
After reading more of the ideas presented here, I began to think about my careful placement of speakers, other furniture in the room, and my listening chair. Speakers may be beamy, may need to be a certain distance from back and side walls...... After all is just so, the sound - here is my problem, how to describe what happens at this point without using terms like soundstage....- opens up and takes on a life of its own.
But then why, after a week or so, do I feel the need to rearrange?
That seems to point to some mechanism of perception rather than anything in the audio system.
At some point the cause ceases to be important, I just draw a pint of home brewed IPA, sit down and enjoy
Ralph
After reading more of the ideas presented here, I began to think about my careful placement of speakers, other furniture in the room, and my listening chair. Speakers may be beamy, may need to be a certain distance from back and side walls...... After all is just so, the sound - here is my problem, how to describe what happens at this point without using terms like soundstage....- opens up and takes on a life of its own.
But then why, after a week or so, do I feel the need to rearrange?
That seems to point to some mechanism of perception rather than anything in the audio system.
At some point the cause ceases to be important, I just draw a pint of home brewed IPA, sit down and enjoy
Ralph
Agree. LF is not part of the answer, systems with nothing below 150Hz do it easy - again, it's about the clarity of the system, the lack of low level distortion; I can completely complete annul the soundstage of my setup by doing a couple of things which add a bit of 'ugliness', roughness to the sound through interference effects - the 3D effect instantly evaporates ...
😱......
BUT...BUT....but...😕
You can't beat a good tune...<<<but it must have soundstage...🙄
The depth..the feel...the shear wonder and excitement.
😀<<<<good on films though.
Regards
M. Gregg
ok, here is the deal
lets assume you have really great speakers with fantastic soundstage
but also aware of the many problems with home environment
so you just leave it at enjoying what else it does equally well
there is more to good soundstage than just the soundstage itself 😉
sorry to say, yes its a never ending trap 🙄
that is why I enjoy the DIY so much ... at least that keeps the fun going 😀
aural 3D and imaging in space, the reverberant field is the 4th dimension, in time. All can simulated easily, maybe never possible to properly record with 2 channels>
it's about time for some 5th Dimension ..up up and away in my beautiful balloon LOL
it's about time for some 5th Dimension ..up up and away in my beautiful balloon LOL
The experiencing of soundstage is an illusion that occurs when the ear/brain is receiving enough of the right information, without being overwhelmed by too much wrong information.
Manipulating the listening space environment is a handy, easy, obvious way of tipping the balance in the right direction - but I was "fortunate" enough to get excellent soundstage using the technique of cleaning up the sound, having never tried any of the 'fiddling with the room' ways. And, I will have to say the former - improving the replay quality - is far superior, because, a) all recordings come to life, and b) you can be anywhere in earshot of the sound and the qualities that make the playback good to listen to in a prime postion are still obvious.
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Ah but....😀
What if the amplifier is masking the information..
Or the source is not up to much...
Or the frequency response of the "whole system is not flat"..
And the speakers don't match the amp...
Or the.....😕😱
If the height is wrong....
The soundstage has a hole in it..
The depth of field is no good...
Then the interaction of the room..
AND YOU HAVE NO TIBETAN BOWL>>>😱
Regards
M. Gregg
its a bit funny, but I always found it annoying if the soundstage focus is not placed in the middle, even if it is not 100% natural
but you will always want to look or listen in the direction of the lead singer in a jazz, rock, or pop
classical music is more tricky
and the drummer can be a real pain, and all over the place
probably because his instrument is way too big 😀
oh, btw, yeah correct height is important
but what is correct, really
not sure you want to look into whatever is below the belly bottom of the lead singer
but you will always want to look or listen in the direction of the lead singer in a jazz, rock, or pop
classical music is more tricky
and the drummer can be a real pain, and all over the place
probably because his instrument is way too big 😀
oh, btw, yeah correct height is important
but what is correct, really
not sure you want to look into whatever is below the belly bottom of the lead singer
On cheap plastic PC speakers? Please fas, you are running out of both excuses and hyperbole.
Abs
Hi, thanks a lot for the very interesting test.
I found it a very useful tool indeed ... i am a big fan of soundstage/image.
Personally i think that given a recording with soundstage well captured the element more impacting the performance is the listening room.
To an extreme in a reverberation room you will have no soundstage to speak of. In a anechoic room the opposite (i guess).
The real rooms are in between.
For instance i was listening with a flat wall in front of me (and also behind me).
The image was flat. I put a thick carpet on it and the front wall went down (sonically). Like disappear.
And i got some depth of soundstage.
Because the reflection from the wall were stopped.
The bats see the objects from the sound that they reflect.
A sadic would put a bat in an anechoic chamber ... it will crash against the walls.
Now that i think in a reverberation room it will be even worse ...
I think.
Thanks again and kind regards,
gino
P.S. of course speakers and amp must be decent but i guess that in the right room a decent system would be more than enough.
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I think that's fair. If someone say the same to be, I don' have an exact idea, but a good general one.
Would it be as useless for me to say "This motorcycle handles great!"? Or "This television has a very nice image."? If someone said that to me, I'd be interested to know more, I'd ask for more specifics. Soundstage isn't one simple thing, it's a complex set of things.
If you told me (unlikely) that a speaker had great Soundstage, I'd nod my head and say "OK" if I weren't interested in details. But if I were, I ask in what ways was the Soundstage good? Same with a concert hall; I tell you it has great acoustics. That means nothing?
Guess I'm not enough of a pedant to be bothered by the term. 🙂
If three different people mean three different things by "handling," then yes, useless.
Imaging, spaciousness, localization, these are all simple and universally understood terms defining specific things. And they are more or less independent aspects of the sound. A Rorschach word simply isn't needed and fuzzes up the issue(s).
I did some digging and it seems that the term "soundstage" was coined by that deep thinker Harry Pearson. So yes, it's a marketing word.
Without context, yes, meaningless.
If it is not on the recording it does not exist. Sorry, those who hear and see visions are simply clairvoyant.
often good to have a photo of the artist(s)
helps preventing the imagination from going completely wild 😀
helps preventing the imagination from going completely wild 😀
Try the test in post 102#
Yes if its on the recording...and yes if the equipment can produce it.
That fact that it is not produced does not mean its not on the recording.<<if this was not true then any 10$ amp would be as good as high end equipment!
Regards
M. Gregg
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Define what YOU mean by "soundstage." Define what you mean by "frequency response" in the context of a speaker.
Those are genuine questions.
The full audio frequency is produced without change in amplitude ie a true representation of the signal during a sweep. Taking into account any amplification to drive the speaker.
Soundstage, the ability of the equipment to reproduce a "manufactured" image..ie LEDR test.
Regards
M. Gregg
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