Basic Soudstage Testing
Place two microphones and a sound source in room A, in room B we place two speakers and amps sourced from room A, Move the sound source in Room A, listen in room B for soundstage. Only a small step to workout how to measure it. If you wanted to include playback equipment in the loop, it would be quite easy to to so. The hard part would be to get everyone to apply to the same test standards.
I think we underestimate how difficult it is to create a 3 D soundstage out of a 2 D system. We have all listened to surround sound systems and have no problem hearing the soundstage.
Place two microphones and a sound source in room A, in room B we place two speakers and amps sourced from room A, Move the sound source in Room A, listen in room B for soundstage. Only a small step to workout how to measure it. If you wanted to include playback equipment in the loop, it would be quite easy to to so. The hard part would be to get everyone to apply to the same test standards.
I think we underestimate how difficult it is to create a 3 D soundstage out of a 2 D system. We have all listened to surround sound systems and have no problem hearing the soundstage.
"Soundstage" is a subjective metric for people who really like to listen to their equipment.
It doesn't seem to have much to do with music, as far as I can tell.
I wish that there was another metric used in revues - NOGR or NOGbR; 'Number Of Goosbumps Raised". That would be significantly more interesting.
It doesn't seem to have much to do with music, as far as I can tell.
I wish that there was another metric used in revues - NOGR or NOGbR; 'Number Of Goosbumps Raised". That would be significantly more interesting.
Actually it is easy to "pin down" if one knows all the paramaters involved in getting a good soundstage /good audio which I assume you do.
IMO the term "soundstage" reflects the growing consumer ignorance about what makes good audio.
I guess I'm school and come from an era when the term sound stage was never used for audio playback and consumers were mostly well versed in good audio .
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The problem doesn't seem to be the term soundstage, but you ignoring people that keep giving you consistent definitions of what it is. I'm guessing you don't have a system that creates a soundstage, or are one of the 10% or so of people that do not have the "wiring" to perceive it.
That we cannot measure it does not make it un-real. So far, we only really measure the easy things, many of which are meaningless or are buried by more important characteristics we still have no idea how to measure.
dave
I've mentioned many times how to go about it, and it works every time - isolating each system deficiency that creates clearly audible distortion, and resolving it - this is a step by step by step process, there will never be a 'silver bullet', quick fix solution. And it's always easy to hear system distortion, just put on a 'difficult' recording, wind up the volume a bit, and move close in to the front of the speakers - if it's easy to hear to hear the drivers 'working', to pinpoint precisely the sound coming from the drivers, and in fact they sound rather unpleasant, especially the tweeter - then there's too much distortion.
I've used this technique over and over again on a myriad of "cheap and nasty" speakers, nothing particular electronics - and it always works. The difficult part is maintaining the enthusiasm, and focus on solving all the issues - because unless you do this the 'good sound' won't emerge ...
It's difficult, but not for the reasons most people think. I haven't listened to a surround sound system yet that was any good - to me they're pretty artificial, like a novelty ride at the fairground - fun for a little while, but quite irritating over any reasonable listening period ...
you experience a lot of funny stuff when you begin learning how to tune musical instruments
it affects integration with the music, and the sound
and thus probably also controls the soundstage
but ofcourse I really don't know that 😀
though, I guess soundstage with 'mixed' music can only be 'artificial', or imaginary
but a good chair in the correct listening position appear pointless without
then you need to have some kind of 'focus'
artificial or not doesn't really matter then
there just have to be something to create the focus and attention
and it also quite funny or interesting how a video changes 'focus', or soundstage ... and it does
it affects integration with the music, and the sound
and thus probably also controls the soundstage
but ofcourse I really don't know that 😀
though, I guess soundstage with 'mixed' music can only be 'artificial', or imaginary
but a good chair in the correct listening position appear pointless without
then you need to have some kind of 'focus'
artificial or not doesn't really matter then
there just have to be something to create the focus and attention
and it also quite funny or interesting how a video changes 'focus', or soundstage ... and it does
IMO, it just reflects the fact that the marketing departments have jumped on it.
Since it is hard to define makes it all the better for the marketing guys.
Defining horsepower, torque, gas mileage, acceleration etc are easy enough to do for an automobile. Defining road feel or ride comfort is harder, it's a complex mix of things. Ditto Soundstage.
You misunderstand my point.
I know exactly what is implied by good sound stage means. It means music is reproduce realistically.
We all llknow that and that is all some are saying .
The question is, how do you achieve that..
Yes I know as I have been an audiophile since the early '70s
I wot go into my audio histiry in this thread..
Just purchasing everything that promises a good soundstage will not insure. it.
It will only insure an empty wallet.
The public needs to know what contributes to realistic audio ( good soundstage if you must) to understand how to achieve it..
Example... ...
Tell most anyone (out side of this forum) these days that you want a flat response and they will tell you that they do not want flat sounding music oblivious to the fact that a flat response is one of the main things that gives you a good...... well.......... soundstage.
The irony is, they all want good soundstage because that is the only audio buzz word that they hear over and over and over..... ad nausum but, they have no idea what it means .
Fact is, just about everything that contributes to a god soundstage can be measured. but, to measure something you first have to know what to measure.🙂 .
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That is not true. Althou to get a good soundstage you usually have all those things in place already.
Even the best hifis are not capable of reproducing realistic unamplified music, to an extent because we haven't figured out how to record it. They are capable of producing an enjoyable illusion, good enuff that our brains can take it and run with it, filling in the missing pieces (something some accomplished musicians can do with a clockradio).
dave
When you say the reproduction is "unrealistic" how do you define that - IOW, how do you 'test' that aspect?
I don't even know where to start answering that... i can say that we cannot yet measure that, it is a larger problem than figuring out how to measure all the smaller problems we have yet to figure out (many of them related to human hearing perception and having nothng to do with hifi)
dave
I don't hate it. I can't hate things I don't understand. I am amused by it. People use meaningless words when they want to say something but have nothing to say.
Not in the slightest ... someone says that, to deride audio reproduction in a general sense, and what are they actually pinpointing at this point? There's a chap who frequents another forum who believes in true headroom for audio reproduction, who has no trouble in achieving 135dB sound levels at the seating position with the electronics just ticking along nicely, under no stress while doing this - and for him realistic reproduction is trivial. He mentions visiting a pipe organ in the flesh, and being quite disappointed with the intensity of the sound, his recordings do a much better job of conveying the qualities of organ sound. Also, a live drum kit, not a problem - in his professional life he was able to mimic the real thing well enough that a drummer standing right there couldn't pick it ...
So again, what's the definition of unrealistic?
Did you just say what I think you just said?fas42 said:
You have almost given a definition of the difference between 'audio' and 'hi-fi'. A hi-fi enthusiast expects an organ recording to sound almost as good as a real organ. An audio enthusiast may be confident that his system makes an organ recording sound better than a real organ.
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