I'll state it again in case you didn't get it. I listened to the super-efficient Klipsch driven by SE 300B holy grail sound systems - they were okay. They weren't great and certainly didn't sound as good as my system. SO, apparently, my "horribly inefficient" speakers aren't too shabby.
SET's have notoriously poor bass and this is intinsic to their characteristics. You have learnt nothing by your comparison other than the weakness of SET.
Your statements are to broad and sweeping to be taken seriously.
Shoog
I have yet to hear a Klipsch speaker that I like.
They sound like fullrangers from old record consoles.
Thats quite funny since I think that some of those old console fullrangers, with a helper tweeter and woofer, are the best sounding speakers it is possible to build.
Just goes to show that sweeping statements can't be universally applicable.
Shoog
Well fullrangers can sound nice, it's more that I was very underwhelmed by Klipsch when demonstrated to me.
I agree that SE was originally only seen on "cheapie" equipment but nowadays designers are pushing the boundaries of what can be achieved.
In the "Valve Era", PP was found to be the best utilisation of the components available.
You will never be able to realise the output power of a PP amp using SE, but it is arguable that with high sensitivity speakers SE may give better lower power results.
Nelson Pass works in this "First Watt" area with SS designs that surpass higher power designs.
In the "Valve Era", PP was found to be the best utilisation of the components available.
You will never be able to realise the output power of a PP amp using SE, but it is arguable that with high sensitivity speakers SE may give better lower power results.
Nelson Pass works in this "First Watt" area with SS designs that surpass higher power designs.
Is the El Cheapo not just Fools Gold?
A valve amp is expensive to build, if you build cheap you will get cheap.
As you are going to have to spend many £100's on the transformers anyway, why not aim for nirvana in the first instance.
The Williamson is available in "almost" kit form, OK you have to source your own components but the BOMs are freely available and the transformers are also readily available.
There's nothing worse than spending £100's on a project and then wishing you had waited a bit longer for the better version.
A valve amp is expensive to build, if you build cheap you will get cheap.
As you are going to have to spend many £100's on the transformers anyway, why not aim for nirvana in the first instance.
The Williamson is available in "almost" kit form, OK you have to source your own components but the BOMs are freely available and the transformers are also readily available.
There's nothing worse than spending £100's on a project and then wishing you had waited a bit longer for the better version.
Jerry, you are so New, brain washed and closed minded, that your system couldn't be that great. You're in this 6 years, And have built every speaker design out there? Come on dude, You just sound like a fool. I want to see your hand built RCA LC-1a's, Or Maybe your Quad ESL's.....😱
And if Bass is your foundation, you're probably listening to pillow fight nirvana. Music is in the Mids......
This thread has just gotten shamefully ridiculous. I'm out...
And if Bass is your foundation, you're probably listening to pillow fight nirvana. Music is in the Mids......
This thread has just gotten shamefully ridiculous. I'm out...
Is it? What didn't you like about your El Cheapo?
I did not see a budget in the OPs list of requirements #3.
Why? It comes down to the individuals skill and resourcefulness.
FYI, they stopped designing vacuum tubes 50 years ago, just what is it you are waiting for?
My simulations shows 0.481541% Total Harmonic Distortion at 22W! Yes B+ is 350V. Russian 6P14P/6P14P-EV can take 400V (at dissipation less then 8W).
Attachments
No-one is waiting for anything. But if you restrict yourself to a budget you will only get what you spend. The biggest expense will always be the output transformers.
It's true the EL84/6BQ5 was designed for radio back in 50's and to be super easy to drive so the circuit could be simpler. Maybe if you don't turn up the volume (say 10W-12W CH) control to max why can't it be just about as low in distortion as 6V6? It does seem to have the full 20-20K + frequency response capability in PP amps by manufacturer's specs. etc of the other tubes so why would the Bass be poorer?
Here's an interesting article/ schem for it from the Tubecad site.
Tube CAD Journal: Tube balanced phono stage, July 1999
The 5 tube one is interesting for 10W, but would multiple tubes hurt the sonics?
Here's an interesting article/ schem for it from the Tubecad site.
Tube CAD Journal: Tube balanced phono stage, July 1999
The 5 tube one is interesting for 10W, but would multiple tubes hurt the sonics?
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"My simulations shows 0.481541% Total Harmonic Distortion at 22W!"
Simulations are usually way too optimistic.
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"The biggest expense will always be the output transformers. "
Agreed. So after spending the bucks on the OTs, get some decent tubes.
(assuming this is a quality build, not some recycled parts amp)
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"It does seem to have the full 20-20K + frequency response capability in PP amps by manufacturer's specs. etc of the other tubes so why would the Bass be poorer? "
Tubes don't generally have any frequency limitations in the audio band, but the circuit design (or cheap OT) certainly can. No reason you can't build a quality amp using 6BQ5s, just a question of whether it makes good sense, if another tube type can do it easier. If you are spending the money for a good OT, then go with an appropriate tube set. This does not necessarily mean it has to be some expensive audio type tubes.
The audio field never caught up with the rapid innovations that were occuring in the TV field. Low screen voltage TV sweeps obviate the need for "kinkless" pentodes, since the kinks are out of the way from the loadline. The efficiency goes way up with a lower screen V too. The frame grid video tubes can make super driver tubes. And some of the best tubes out there are (or were) only a few $. Screen grid drive (possible with the low screen V tubes) gives you a tube that is more linear than any tube at any price. You do have to deal with the high output Rp that way though.
Simulations are usually way too optimistic.
------------------------------
"The biggest expense will always be the output transformers. "
Agreed. So after spending the bucks on the OTs, get some decent tubes.
(assuming this is a quality build, not some recycled parts amp)
------------------------------
"It does seem to have the full 20-20K + frequency response capability in PP amps by manufacturer's specs. etc of the other tubes so why would the Bass be poorer? "
Tubes don't generally have any frequency limitations in the audio band, but the circuit design (or cheap OT) certainly can. No reason you can't build a quality amp using 6BQ5s, just a question of whether it makes good sense, if another tube type can do it easier. If you are spending the money for a good OT, then go with an appropriate tube set. This does not necessarily mean it has to be some expensive audio type tubes.
The audio field never caught up with the rapid innovations that were occuring in the TV field. Low screen voltage TV sweeps obviate the need for "kinkless" pentodes, since the kinks are out of the way from the loadline. The efficiency goes way up with a lower screen V too. The frame grid video tubes can make super driver tubes. And some of the best tubes out there are (or were) only a few $. Screen grid drive (possible with the low screen V tubes) gives you a tube that is more linear than any tube at any price. You do have to deal with the high output Rp that way though.
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It is my personal experience that it's better to get the job done in as few stages as practicable as each successive stage will muck up the sound and sending it through a bunch of stages will, to some extent, suck the life out of the music. Whether that is the consensus? I'm not going to presuppose. Maybe someone KNOWLEDGEABLE will weigh in here.
However, I have noticed that with any device (transistor or tube) if you try to squeeze too much gain out of it, sounds bad. I was using my o'scope while building a high gain stage. It looked fine on the scope, but when I actually deployed the circuit, didn't sound so hot. So, I reduced the gain and it sounded better. I considered that a valuable lesson learned.
I've deleted some rules-breaking posts. If people repeat in engaging in personal attacks in place of technical arguments, they will be in read-only mode.
Only a Noob would be so ridiculous as to say He's built every design out there. Have you built this design?
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Personally I Have enough experience to know I am not an authority, But I have been blessed with the chance to listen to one hell of a lot of different equipment. And I'll take every Tele EL84 I can get my grubby hands on, They can sound Glorious!
Thank God Jerry's here to school us, or we may have made the mistake of building EL84 amps for a second 60 years.
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