What does this even mean?
You paid how much for a 8 year old saw? That's $356 Canadian dollars! Plus you had to by a transformer and may pay another $200 CAD to sharpen the blades he was "nice" enough to give you? If he gave them away they may not be the caliber of blade worth sharpening, but that is another topic.
If a tradesman sells you his tools, there is usually a good reason.
So your story actually works against your point, as this "pro"carpenter disliked that saw enough to sell it. It wasn't worth the bulk and inaccuracy to have this monster sliding saw to lug around.
These tools all flex one way or another, including the saw blade itself. My argument, which is based on decades of high end finish carpentry, is that dropping a spinning blade onto the top of the workpiece generates a reaction in the blade itself causing flexure which affects the cut. The slider/glider enters the cut from the edge, as in an old school crosscut on a table saw, in a less disruptive (?) way. Unfortunately the width of the piece is limited to the capacity of the tool so for speaker building, contrasted with trim work, the solution remains expensive. Haven't tried the Festool guided circularsaw, but Festool = expensive. Less than a panel saw though.
At the beginning of the day we all need to work with what we have. At the end of the day we all need to relax a bit.
At the beginning of the day we all need to work with what we have. At the end of the day we all need to relax a bit.
Seems the slider is the way to go for speaker building. Can extend arm, and swing into the wood, an oval type action, which would reduce splintering. Can also score the top with a little practice; so there is flexibility there.
[Can "back up" most anything with scrap, but that runs out fast and makes 2x as much dust.]
There were some good ideas for tables in web "Image Results" E.g. 12" deep out-table or as far/deep as the saw will cut.
Have an Delta saw buck here, nice shape, not good for veneer work; it pulls down on the veneer, never a good idea.
[Can "back up" most anything with scrap, but that runs out fast and makes 2x as much dust.]
There were some good ideas for tables in web "Image Results" E.g. 12" deep out-table or as far/deep as the saw will cut.
Have an Delta saw buck here, nice shape, not good for veneer work; it pulls down on the veneer, never a good idea.
OK so my friend Sippy-cup is very upset, he even went so far as to send me a nasty private message saying he is going to donate to DIYAudio just so he can ignore me.
I suppose you could find an old radial arm saw to do some experiments.
I kind of know what you mean, but the blade is round, generally speaking it will matter very little. Tearout will be in the same location. Tearout is the same on a radial arm saw as well. Cutting full depth like that could also wander, it all comes down to speed.
Myself I am fine even with an average blade.
I suppose you could find an old radial arm saw to do some experiments.
I kind of know what you mean, but the blade is round, generally speaking it will matter very little. Tearout will be in the same location. Tearout is the same on a radial arm saw as well. Cutting full depth like that could also wander, it all comes down to speed.
Myself I am fine even with an average blade.
A table saw is the way to go for speaker building. A sliding mitre saw is not big enough or accurate enough to cut panels.
You are going to need a table saw anyways, so use this for the panels.
Cutting large angles with a slider is also iffy, the grain can want to pull the blade inline with the grain when it slides, causing the saw to wander.
Sippy come back, it's just tool talk.
If I come across curt, I apologize.
My field is full off misinformation and shenanigans, if I experience a better way to do something, I am passionate it.
There are few left of the "older" generation to pass on skills. Many folks now who run construction type business where just employees that assimilated the role as their employers retired.
The skill pool is diluted.
Therefore a good carpenter in the 2010s is aggressive and self taught. There is no time or need for bad advice from some local "pro" when we have such a plethora of good information at our disposal online and in books.
I know this will sound arrogant, but my opinions are based upon experience, these opinions are based on financial dependency. Every job has to get done.
Short of having a table saw that has two blades running at the same time, (One small one that scores the veneer), your next best bet would be a nice 10" blade designed for cutting veneered wood. When new and with a staright fence the tearout is minimal, the bottom can be as nice as the top.
You may also invest in a set of blade stiffeners. (Like big washers).
As far as table saw quality, this is a tool that you can buy used and may get a better one then you could afford new.
As long as the table saw's bearings have minimal slop, a decent table can be built around this to support the sheets when you cut them. If the fence sucks, you can bolt on an aftermarket one.
If I come across curt, I apologize.
My field is full off misinformation and shenanigans, if I experience a better way to do something, I am passionate it.
There are few left of the "older" generation to pass on skills. Many folks now who run construction type business where just employees that assimilated the role as their employers retired.
The skill pool is diluted.
Therefore a good carpenter in the 2010s is aggressive and self taught. There is no time or need for bad advice from some local "pro" when we have such a plethora of good information at our disposal online and in books.
I know this will sound arrogant, but my opinions are based upon experience, these opinions are based on financial dependency. Every job has to get done.
Short of having a table saw that has two blades running at the same time, (One small one that scores the veneer), your next best bet would be a nice 10" blade designed for cutting veneered wood. When new and with a staright fence the tearout is minimal, the bottom can be as nice as the top.
You may also invest in a set of blade stiffeners. (Like big washers).
As far as table saw quality, this is a tool that you can buy used and may get a better one then you could afford new.
As long as the table saw's bearings have minimal slop, a decent table can be built around this to support the sheets when you cut them. If the fence sucks, you can bolt on an aftermarket one.
Cool, some thought out answers here.
*Had a radial arm saw. It flexes too much and I sold it. Inconsistent depth made compound cuts a mess. ( Sears 10")
* Motor on back= $$, but looks like I was not missing something about use and dual bevel is needed. Direct drive won't cut as deep either. Hat's the answer I was looking for.
*I can see how a compound cut might get the blade to flex a little. Where I have a thin kerf blade in my 10" Delta, it is not compound so probably enters cleaner. This suggests we should get the thicker blades and do very slow entry.
*I actually use the flex to adjust that "rch" when I am doing trim work around the house.
*I have a nice table saw. I found making compound bevels on it to be a bit scary and not terribly precise. Crosscutting 8 foot planks is also a bit scary. Those are my motivations for looking into a bigger chop saw. I find I use my Delta a lot, so would bigger is better still apply?
I am guessing the laser lines are only good for framing. They can't be as sharp as a scribe.
I have not found a used saw locally. I look there first. Got my dust collector, joiner and planer all used from people who did not know how to set them up and thought they were junk. 🙂
In the mean time I picked up the HF 12 inch disk sander. With a diamond hone, I was able to true the disk that last half a thou and it runs smooth and flat. Very happy. Weird, the miter slot is non-standard size. I think I should extend the table about double the dimensions.
Much thanks all.
*Had a radial arm saw. It flexes too much and I sold it. Inconsistent depth made compound cuts a mess. ( Sears 10")
* Motor on back= $$, but looks like I was not missing something about use and dual bevel is needed. Direct drive won't cut as deep either. Hat's the answer I was looking for.
*I can see how a compound cut might get the blade to flex a little. Where I have a thin kerf blade in my 10" Delta, it is not compound so probably enters cleaner. This suggests we should get the thicker blades and do very slow entry.
*I actually use the flex to adjust that "rch" when I am doing trim work around the house.
*I have a nice table saw. I found making compound bevels on it to be a bit scary and not terribly precise. Crosscutting 8 foot planks is also a bit scary. Those are my motivations for looking into a bigger chop saw. I find I use my Delta a lot, so would bigger is better still apply?
I am guessing the laser lines are only good for framing. They can't be as sharp as a scribe.
I have not found a used saw locally. I look there first. Got my dust collector, joiner and planer all used from people who did not know how to set them up and thought they were junk. 🙂
In the mean time I picked up the HF 12 inch disk sander. With a diamond hone, I was able to true the disk that last half a thou and it runs smooth and flat. Very happy. Weird, the miter slot is non-standard size. I think I should extend the table about double the dimensions.
Much thanks all.
Right on.
As far as a laser, I had it on the first DW716 I had, it was very acceptable even for trim work. On this particular setup it did work very well and I do miss it at times. I don't need it, but it is an obvious luxury when well implemented.
The laser lets you put your pencil mark wherever you want on the piece, this can make life easy at times.
Providing the laser does not move around from job to job, the reference is repeatable. I would just line my pencil mark up with the side of the laser mark, therefor the width of the laser beam is irrelevant.(Dust will however make it wider if not cleaned occasionally.)
The laser can only travel down the side of the blade, so I create a "shadow" of the blade with the laser and use that to line up my pencil mark. Dust is not really an issue using this technique.
I would have to fine adjustments the laser every 3-12 months of use. It just depends on how much the saw gets bumped around in transportation, but the method I used for the laser alignment is forgiving that way.
EDIT: I will be buying the laser attachment for this saw too.
As far as a laser, I had it on the first DW716 I had, it was very acceptable even for trim work. On this particular setup it did work very well and I do miss it at times. I don't need it, but it is an obvious luxury when well implemented.
The laser lets you put your pencil mark wherever you want on the piece, this can make life easy at times.
Providing the laser does not move around from job to job, the reference is repeatable. I would just line my pencil mark up with the side of the laser mark, therefor the width of the laser beam is irrelevant.(Dust will however make it wider if not cleaned occasionally.)
The laser can only travel down the side of the blade, so I create a "shadow" of the blade with the laser and use that to line up my pencil mark. Dust is not really an issue using this technique.
I would have to fine adjustments the laser every 3-12 months of use. It just depends on how much the saw gets bumped around in transportation, but the method I used for the laser alignment is forgiving that way.
EDIT: I will be buying the laser attachment for this saw too.
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I'm late in here but will outline what works for me. I have a 10" Sears cast iron table saw from the late 80's. I built a crosscut box that allows me to make accurate cuts up to 28" wide. This allows me to cross cut 24x48 panels of Baltic Birch or MDF for speaker cabinets. I have an out feed table that's 32"x48. I generally try to work with the 2x4' panels. Wrangling a 4x8ft sheet of plywood onto a small table saw and making an accurate cut is not practical IME.
If you can make a crosscut box for your table saw it is well worth the effort. It's the single most useful accessory I've ever built for my table saw. I use a narrow kerf Freud Diablo 50 tooth combination blade for cutting MDF. It makes excellent cuts and makes the most of the 1.5hp motor on the saw.
For a Mitre saw I have a Makita LS1016L and I find it's an easy to operate, accurate saw. It does take up a lot of space though.
Brian
If you can make a crosscut box for your table saw it is well worth the effort. It's the single most useful accessory I've ever built for my table saw. I use a narrow kerf Freud Diablo 50 tooth combination blade for cutting MDF. It makes excellent cuts and makes the most of the 1.5hp motor on the saw.
For a Mitre saw I have a Makita LS1016L and I find it's an easy to operate, accurate saw. It does take up a lot of space though.
Brian
Crapp Ryobi
With a crappy Ryobi table saw , some craftsmanship and a little brains , one can build very nice speakers 😉
Cheers ,
Rens
With a crappy Ryobi table saw , some craftsmanship and a little brains , one can build very nice speakers 😉
Cheers ,
Rens
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Sigh,
I have a nice table saw. I have a crosscut slide for it. I have a selection of Freud blades. I have some small about of skill, but never enough. I too usually cut down big sheet goods to 2 x 4 foot so I can handle them by myself. I do build very nice cabinets already. I am an old guy trying to step it up, not a newbee.
I build not only speakers, but some amount of furniture and usual household trim stuff. My Grandfather did these things with a hand saw and a plane. I am not that good or patient.
I have my 10" chop right behind my TS. I find I use it a lot, but frequently wish it was bigger. I am interested in building very complex shapes, like 3/4 of a dodecahedrian. This means compound miters in a repeatable and accurate setup with 10 to 12 inch reach. I have tried this on the TS, and not had great luck. One would need to build a custom sliding table with hold-downs for every combination of cuts. I also find I am cutting to length long planks, like 8 foot-12 inch planks for various projects. These are very clumsy and not very safe on a table saw.
The question was not how to do something, but to get the very helpful feedback I have received on the lack of quality and design in these saws as I have seen them in our local home centers. Next week is the woodworking show, so I hope to see a Festool there to see what I think of it. I can't even find Bosch or Makita in our local stores. They carry more cheapest possible junk than quality as it seems that is what the world is coming too. DeWalt seems to be the high line, and if the several of their tools I have is an indication, I am not a fan. Not just quality, but design I find lacking. I am a bit critical, as I am actually trained as a manufacturing quality engineer. I look at everything with my old failure analysis lab cynical eye. It has served me well.
Looking in detail, several of the saws use the same plastic toggle design to set the miter index. Bad design that will stay accurate a week, maybe. That was one of the issues with Sears RAS. It was never still square after you did a miter or bevel.
HE, thanks for the encouragement on the laser. I would have dismissed it. Just saw a Dewalt on Craigs List about two blocks over, but I think he wants too much for it.
I have a nice table saw. I have a crosscut slide for it. I have a selection of Freud blades. I have some small about of skill, but never enough. I too usually cut down big sheet goods to 2 x 4 foot so I can handle them by myself. I do build very nice cabinets already. I am an old guy trying to step it up, not a newbee.
I build not only speakers, but some amount of furniture and usual household trim stuff. My Grandfather did these things with a hand saw and a plane. I am not that good or patient.
I have my 10" chop right behind my TS. I find I use it a lot, but frequently wish it was bigger. I am interested in building very complex shapes, like 3/4 of a dodecahedrian. This means compound miters in a repeatable and accurate setup with 10 to 12 inch reach. I have tried this on the TS, and not had great luck. One would need to build a custom sliding table with hold-downs for every combination of cuts. I also find I am cutting to length long planks, like 8 foot-12 inch planks for various projects. These are very clumsy and not very safe on a table saw.
The question was not how to do something, but to get the very helpful feedback I have received on the lack of quality and design in these saws as I have seen them in our local home centers. Next week is the woodworking show, so I hope to see a Festool there to see what I think of it. I can't even find Bosch or Makita in our local stores. They carry more cheapest possible junk than quality as it seems that is what the world is coming too. DeWalt seems to be the high line, and if the several of their tools I have is an indication, I am not a fan. Not just quality, but design I find lacking. I am a bit critical, as I am actually trained as a manufacturing quality engineer. I look at everything with my old failure analysis lab cynical eye. It has served me well.
Looking in detail, several of the saws use the same plastic toggle design to set the miter index. Bad design that will stay accurate a week, maybe. That was one of the issues with Sears RAS. It was never still square after you did a miter or bevel.
HE, thanks for the encouragement on the laser. I would have dismissed it. Just saw a Dewalt on Craigs List about two blocks over, but I think he wants too much for it.
I'll be at the tool show next week - not sure they have great deals.
Maybe stash some cash so you haggle with a seller; that's my plan anyway.
Maybe stash some cash so you haggle with a seller; that's my plan anyway.
As far as lasers and pencil marks go, you are much more consistent cutting to a precisely located stop than marking lumber or using a laser. I have the Kreg system installed on my slider and for consistency piece to piece it can't be beat.
I hear what your saying H.E.
I too am a passionate person, but one thing I've learnt is not to try and teach people how to suck an egg, as they might have an entire battery farm of hens in their mouth already 😉
Funny thing is that 'carpentry' or wood bashing runs deeply in my family - Grand-father (moms side) was a 'Ships Master Carpenter' - on dads side, gramps was taught carpentry by moms side which he did for 10yrs before he became a whiskey hauler.
Both taught my father - his carpentry was (he died 3 months ago) good enough to fly, both miniature and Full size.......
Being strong on tradition, my father taught me about 'wood and working it', I started young, aged 4......... 38yrs later I'm still at it, its not my main trade, but when a persons done things like re-build a Morgan, built a Locost (alloy skinned wood body kit-car), works on wooden boats, planes, wood cabins etc etc one gets a general idea of what tools are good / utter trash even though they / I don't call my self a 'carpenter'.
It's a 'trade' that helps keep me in pocket when making custom surfboards* slows up now that Printing (1st trade) and Gen / Motor Vehicle Eng (2nd trade) have died in the UK / my area respectively.
Just like many of you, I've watched the world become a 'disposable' place and yes, I will go out and buy a £20 blade or two for my tool - IF I'm working out side on a not so demanding job, they are thin, some times inaccurate and go blunt quick as a blink, but that's OK for a fence right?
I buy 3 packs of 20" hand saws, they go blunt and in the bin they go.
Customer gets the bill for them, same thing happens if I use a decent saw / blade or a plane and have to sharpen.
As for the carpenter selling me his Bosch - Matts a big roughty toughty kick-boxing surfer dude, on one job he bent down to pick a length of wood up from the stack and his back went with a proper rifle shot, when he recovered he decided that the Bosch was going to be too much to lug if he was on his own, so he bought the Fes, it's half the weight....... Including its dedicated stand.
No Brainer right there.
*I make balsa ones as well, had to MAKE a compass plane, which the Bosch came handy for, out of a block of beech as the 'Iron' ones in my collection were, at best, useless but remain in my collection to 'complete' the set 🙂
I was shopping for a table saw recently in the 500-600 dollar range and had returned two before settling on an older all steel and aluminum ryobi with cross cut slide and router mount dust shroud and a couple other nice bells. I can do 17" cross cuts on the sucker. It only set me back 175 bucks. I can also buy bearings for it locally if needed. Something with similar capabilities new would of set me back more than the price bracket I was in. If you have patience used can be a great way to go agreed.
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That Ryobi will serve nicely as long as you do not lug down the motor. It is still a portable tool. There was a DeWalt 10" portable table saw a few years back that was the best of its kind I've used, with a very flat table and a clamp on both the front and back of the motor/arbor unit which made for much cleaner rip cuts than say the Makitas that I have had. It sold for around $600 but I think it outperformed the typical "contractor style" saws with the motor bouncing around out back, hanging by the belt. The link belts are worth the money in my opinion, if you have one of these. Much smoother, which is nice on a band saw especially, and maybe less prone to slippage.
Of course, my 1953 Unisaw has triple belts and hundreds of pounds of mass so it needs nothing. Love it.
Of course, my 1953 Unisaw has triple belts and hundreds of pounds of mass so it needs nothing. Love it.
Yes...the 12" Bosch is one of the top contenders.
I was able to try the 12" Dewalt 718 and Milwaukee, they are also very nice.
I was able to try the 12" Dewalt 718 and Milwaukee, they are also very nice.
Looked at the Bosh arm, Makita, and Festool at the woodworking show. All are better than the ones I saw in the local stores. Bosch just introduced a 10 inch arm version.
It is my understanding that the parent for Roybi now does Emerson and Milwaukee as well as Ridged, which explains why they all look like cheap Chinese junk now. They are. Sure am glad I have lifetime replacement on the Rigid batteries in my little drill. Three failures in two years.
Also looked at sanders. Yea, the Festool felt nicer than my DeWalt, but the new Bosch seemed even smoother. The Fien multitool sure was smoother than my Sears.
Kreg bought Triton. Did not know that.
Anyway, I only bought a new router plate, saw blade, marking knife and a few smalls.
It is my understanding that the parent for Roybi now does Emerson and Milwaukee as well as Ridged, which explains why they all look like cheap Chinese junk now. They are. Sure am glad I have lifetime replacement on the Rigid batteries in my little drill. Three failures in two years.
Also looked at sanders. Yea, the Festool felt nicer than my DeWalt, but the new Bosch seemed even smoother. The Fien multitool sure was smoother than my Sears.
Kreg bought Triton. Did not know that.
Anyway, I only bought a new router plate, saw blade, marking knife and a few smalls.
I recently purchased a Mirka Ceros sander. The "abranet" mesh sanding disks in conjunction with a vacuum makes for virtually dust free sanding.
The vacuum hose can take a little bit to get used to, but this is neither here nor there in regards to the sander. After seeing how well the dust collection works I can't not use it. (Sorry for the double negative)
Much nicer to use then the pneumatic Dynabrade I was using before. The Dynabrade was OK, but you obviously need a huge compressor to run pneumatic sanders, not to mention issues with water etc.
The Mirka has awesome feedback, you can't really slow it down. It always has full power, compared to air-tools. It has a small transformer as opposed to needing a compressor, so it is portable.
Interesting fact it uses a "Speakon" connector.
CEROS_home
I would recommend this product, it makes sanding fun.
The vacuum hose can take a little bit to get used to, but this is neither here nor there in regards to the sander. After seeing how well the dust collection works I can't not use it. (Sorry for the double negative)
Much nicer to use then the pneumatic Dynabrade I was using before. The Dynabrade was OK, but you obviously need a huge compressor to run pneumatic sanders, not to mention issues with water etc.
The Mirka has awesome feedback, you can't really slow it down. It always has full power, compared to air-tools. It has a small transformer as opposed to needing a compressor, so it is portable.
Interesting fact it uses a "Speakon" connector.
CEROS_home
I would recommend this product, it makes sanding fun.
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