Because ... ?
Take a case where you do recordings in a space carefully chosen so that there is minimal ambient 'rumbling'. Do a series of recordings of acoustic instruments, no synthesized bass, playing pieces of music that plumb the depths of the musical score. Then, create a version of those tracks where everything below 60Hz is stripped off the waveform, with the sharpest cutoff you can do.
Finally, use a single very high quality system that goes cleanly to, say 20Hz, that has the lowest distortion of bass falling below 60Hz that you can achieve. Play versions A and B of those tracks - under those conditions would you still say that it would be easy for the majority of people to pick it ...?
Take a case where you do recordings in a space carefully chosen so that there is minimal ambient 'rumbling'. Do a series of recordings of acoustic instruments, no synthesized bass, playing pieces of music that plumb the depths of the musical score. Then, create a version of those tracks where everything below 60Hz is stripped off the waveform, with the sharpest cutoff you can do.
Finally, use a single very high quality system that goes cleanly to, say 20Hz, that has the lowest distortion of bass falling below 60Hz that you can achieve. Play versions A and B of those tracks - under those conditions would you still say that it would be easy for the majority of people to pick it ...?
irritating vs fatiguing
To badman: your concern regarding relation between incomplete lows and fatigue are shared by Max Headroom. I didnt want to comment on his post because i felt members are not ready to discuss the topic.
So here im back to basic explaining different kind of unwanted sound. When i or we say fatigue we usually refer to more than one phenomena. A lot actually but i want to limit to driver related fatigue ie cone breakup and crossover related fatigue ie phase/timing problem.
Ontoaba asked why when we were young we didnt complain about fatigue. When we were young we listen to single driver. What we heard was cone breakup, a different kind of fatigue. This kind of fatigue is often forgiven due to the enjoyment associated with sonic and fatigue free single driver! Note this is a different fatigue. People can enjoy tube amp on fostex up untill their ears bleed due to cone breakup.
The other fatigue is harder to understand. Like amplifier distortion, it is not simply thd but the byside products.
Imagine this, if input is guitar sound and output is piano sound, is it hifi? No. Is it distortion? Yes. But is it fatiguing?
To badman: your concern regarding relation between incomplete lows and fatigue are shared by Max Headroom. I didnt want to comment on his post because i felt members are not ready to discuss the topic.
So here im back to basic explaining different kind of unwanted sound. When i or we say fatigue we usually refer to more than one phenomena. A lot actually but i want to limit to driver related fatigue ie cone breakup and crossover related fatigue ie phase/timing problem.
Ontoaba asked why when we were young we didnt complain about fatigue. When we were young we listen to single driver. What we heard was cone breakup, a different kind of fatigue. This kind of fatigue is often forgiven due to the enjoyment associated with sonic and fatigue free single driver! Note this is a different fatigue. People can enjoy tube amp on fostex up untill their ears bleed due to cone breakup.
The other fatigue is harder to understand. Like amplifier distortion, it is not simply thd but the byside products.
Imagine this, if input is guitar sound and output is piano sound, is it hifi? No. Is it distortion? Yes. But is it fatiguing?
If someone were to ask me to assess, in 30 secs or less, whether a system was fatiguing or not, I would put on a "difficult" recording, wind up the volume to a high but still reasonable level, and put my ear next to the tweeter for 30 secs - that would tell me everything I needed to know ... 😛
and of course you would immediately think of Muzak and only muzak 🙄
My Oh My don't we have a limited view.
Several points were asked of you, care to stand up and comment?
Lets see how it feels wearing the other person shoes, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. You have yet to prove to anyone that below 100 is essential and causes fatigue if missing.
My Oh My don't we have a limited view.
Several points were asked of you, care to stand up and comment?
Lets see how it feels wearing the other person shoes, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. You have yet to prove to anyone that below 100 is essential and causes fatigue if missing.
Haha interesting. With my speaker you dont know which one from tweeter and which one from woofer. If i disconnect the woofer i can enjoy the music for hours with full volume of tda2030 amp. I can hear slight breakup but
not fatiguing. If i disconnect the tweeter and do the same thing, i cannot hear breakup but I can hear compression and i can feel the fatigue.
That's too bad, because the original topic is an important and interesting one.
Now you guys are squabbling about I don't know what.
I vote for a return to the topic.
Whether a lack of deep bass in playback is fatiguing or not - I say it's not because musically it plays an extremely small role - unless you listen to modern hip hop, etc, where high levels of synthesized bass is part and parcel of the "sound" ...
What do you listen to? (Besides the "sound" of solder joints and whatever other non-issues you seem to value so much.) Strictly girl-with-acoustic-guitar type stuff?
I listen to big orchestral music. With no bass, it sounds castrata. Play Yuri Temirkanov running the St. Petersburg Phil through DSCH 7 on a high-fidelity system and then one on a toy highpassed at 100Hz, and tell me they're the same experience.
I listen to classic rock. Don't need 20Hz, but plenty of stuff (Pink Floyd, for instance) reaches into the 40s. Listen to "Time" on DSTOM on a high-fidelity system and then one on a toy highpassed at 100Hz, and tell me they're the same experience.
I listen to modern rock/electronica/trip-hop. Play "Nude" from Radiohead's "In Rainbows" album on a high-fidelity system and then one on a toy highpassed at 100Hz, and tell me they're the same experience.
I listen to hip-hop, but you've conceded that one.
I listen to some jazz. Play "Sinister Minister" by Bela Fleck and the Flecktones on a high-fidelity system and then one on a toy highpassed at 100Hz, and tell me they're the same experience.
Pallas the topic is: What causes listening "fatigue"?
Not the difference of having a F.A.S.T. with the sub off or the like and how that compares subjectively. 🙂
Not the difference of having a F.A.S.T. with the sub off or the like and how that compares subjectively. 🙂
Everyone has their own pet theories based, presumably, on a system that they themselves do not find fatiguing. These systems vary from supermarket TV speakers (it's true!), to vinyl/2W valve amps/full range horns, to active five way monsters. I suggest the people with the least powerful systems listen to different music and more quietly than the five-way active people.
In my particular case, I have found that going from passive, commercial, ported 2 or 2.5 way slim floorstanders to a DSP-based, active, sealed, 3 way system with huge woofers has eradicated the listening fatigue I used to feel, so it's those aspects I would concentrate on. If amps have got anything to do with it, then the active configuration is so kind to them that I think it takes them out of the equation.
Active speakers without the correct baffle step corrections (or equivalent) are still fatiguing to listen to over time, and I think it is a fairly critical setting.
I make a distinction between 'sore ears' fatigue, and mere boredom fatigue. I suspect that constant room acoustics (as opposed to simply 'bad' acoustics) plays a large factor in the boredom-type fatigue.
I agree 100%. In that configuration you have eliminated so many problem areas, you've got a huge head start in not having any "fatigue" problems ...
As has been mentioned already, far better to have zero bass than overblown varieties - the latter is far too common, and I find it extremely irritating, and yes, "fatiguing" - if the balance between the top and bottom is out my one thought is how to get out of the environment as fast as possible.
The worst offender I came across recently was the Steinway Lyngdorf Model D in a dealer showroom - ridiculously overcooked bass, quite appalling really ...
The worst offender I came across recently was the Steinway Lyngdorf Model D in a dealer showroom - ridiculously overcooked bass, quite appalling really ...
Agree, I think the distinction is a good one. I thought the subject was the former, but both are important.
My opinion is that we experience atigue when the upper midrange is not balanced (response peaks 1khz - 2.5khz), or if there is ringing in the lower treble (3-6khz)
The former is just a crossover issue. The latter can be a design issue in many ways, ranging from underattenuated metal cone breakup to soft-dome hash.
as far as general unpleasantness, I would blame power compression.
The former is just a crossover issue. The latter can be a design issue in many ways, ranging from underattenuated metal cone breakup to soft-dome hash.
as far as general unpleasantness, I would blame power compression.
I would have thought that for power compression to play a significant role you'd have to listen at ear-splitting levels like somewhere well in excess of 100Wrms.
From the tweeter CSDs I've seen I'd say virtually all play the 3-6kHz region fairly flawlessly. Metal dome breakup usually occurs in the 20-25kHz region.
From the tweeter CSDs I've seen I'd say virtually all play the 3-6kHz region fairly flawlessly. Metal dome breakup usually occurs in the 20-25kHz region.