It is always good to remember that compared to the original event:
The best that can ever be done via metals, semi-conductors, tubes and transformers, etc...is a copy of the original that is very slightly dynamically constricted in a very slightly non linear fashion (slightly more dynamic loss at the top area of transient levels-gain multipliers, etc)..and slightly darker in overall sonics, slightly less information. every single time we step on or transfer the signal in any way, we inject phase distortions, level distortions and molecular noise that is wideband. Every resistor, transistor, capacitor, wire run, RCA jack, cable, solder junction, all of it, individually and cumulatively.
LESS IS MORE.
MORE... is inevitably GARBAGE.
Anything that brightens at all, is WRONG by default logic that is indisputable, due to the very core physics of the method of reproduction.
We may fool ourselves by thinking otherwise, but that is all horsecrap.
Your ear runs backward compared to engineering principles. It works on the tiniest differentials, not the gross ones. Engineering weighting concerns itself that small distortions are meaningless, the ear says that this is the only part it listens to: The tiny changes.
Therefore, micro distortions are everything, and thus every single tiny thing counts toward sonic fidelity.
details, details details. The sonic god is in the details.
The best that can ever be done via metals, semi-conductors, tubes and transformers, etc...is a copy of the original that is very slightly dynamically constricted in a very slightly non linear fashion (slightly more dynamic loss at the top area of transient levels-gain multipliers, etc)..and slightly darker in overall sonics, slightly less information. every single time we step on or transfer the signal in any way, we inject phase distortions, level distortions and molecular noise that is wideband. Every resistor, transistor, capacitor, wire run, RCA jack, cable, solder junction, all of it, individually and cumulatively.
LESS IS MORE.
MORE... is inevitably GARBAGE.
Anything that brightens at all, is WRONG by default logic that is indisputable, due to the very core physics of the method of reproduction.
We may fool ourselves by thinking otherwise, but that is all horsecrap.
Your ear runs backward compared to engineering principles. It works on the tiniest differentials, not the gross ones. Engineering weighting concerns itself that small distortions are meaningless, the ear says that this is the only part it listens to: The tiny changes.
Therefore, micro distortions are everything, and thus every single tiny thing counts toward sonic fidelity.
details, details details. The sonic god is in the details.
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Greebster said:
That is an assertion, but is there any evidence to back it up? I can make an assertion off the top of my head*: that lack of bass causes the listener to turn up the volume of what remains, in order to compensate. This means his hearing is bombarded with an unnaturally-limited range of frequencies at a higher level than he would otherwise have listened at. It also drives his speakers into higher excursions than they would otherwise have needed to make, leading to more distortion = listening fatigue.
*Not entirely off the top of my head, but based on what I feel my ample-bass system has done for me, since dumping the puny, slim floorstanders.
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You could say that something has been added: a signal that is 180 degrees out of phase with the original, with a frequency response that tails off as frequency increases.
When you have delt with hundreds of customers whom have no issue with listening to the lack of bass all day and it doesn't cause them fatigue it's not an assumption based on ones own beliefs.
Think of elevator music, ceiling speakers used for background music in retail stores etc. They lack most everything low, so why aren't the employees running out the door screaming that they can't stand it? Even customers that would bring this point up is a problem.
In these environments the lack of bass is a plus. You can easily dampen the higher frequencies but the bass penetrates walls disturbing others and is very difficult to rid especially so in an office.
I'm sure the boss would be quite pleased having the phone call interrupted during an important meeting.
Can you hear the phase reversal at such frequencies? Not what it does mind you, the phase reversal causes your fatigue?
Think of elevator music, ceiling speakers used for background music in retail stores etc. They lack most everything low, so why aren't the employees running out the door screaming that they can't stand it? Even customers that would bring this point up is a problem.
In these environments the lack of bass is a plus. You can easily dampen the higher frequencies but the bass penetrates walls disturbing others and is very difficult to rid especially so in an office.
I'm sure the boss would be quite pleased having the phone call interrupted during an important meeting.
Can you hear the phase reversal at such frequencies? Not what it does mind you, the phase reversal causes your fatigue?
I think elevator music and, to a certain extent, TV speakers are a red herring (although it's amazing that I actually have to say it). There's obviously a big difference between casual background listening and concentrating solely on the music.
A question: if "missing" information can never be fatiguing, what would it be like to listen to a system with a deep notch between 500 and 1000 Hz, say? Why is that much different from a notch between 0 and 100 Hz?
A question: if "missing" information can never be fatiguing, what would it be like to listen to a system with a deep notch between 500 and 1000 Hz, say? Why is that much different from a notch between 0 and 100 Hz?
That issues are too much blah blah blah and very hard to dig the point. Is there any technical issues with pictures or graph of real test?
The Story So Far:
Up to this point we have a lot of opinions on what causes listening fatigue. Here are a few of the most popular:
Up to this point we have a lot of opinions on what causes listening fatigue. Here are a few of the most popular:
- Distortion
- Cone Breakup
- Treble or tweeter peaks
- Lack of bass
- Bad room acoustics
- Bad tonal balance (see above)
- Listening levels too loud
CopperTop,
At the extreme end of our hearing range tho we can perceive sound it is not that important in respect to how we evolved. What is important lays more in the middle. It's within that range that tells us there's something wrong, causes fatigue, and what allows us to perceive distance, height, width and depth. All key to 3 of the 4 "F"'s that govern human behavior. Feed, Fight or Flight and the last F isn't proper with children around nor needs to apply here (unless U can't find her under the sheets 😉
At the extreme end of our hearing range tho we can perceive sound it is not that important in respect to how we evolved. What is important lays more in the middle. It's within that range that tells us there's something wrong, causes fatigue, and what allows us to perceive distance, height, width and depth. All key to 3 of the 4 "F"'s that govern human behavior. Feed, Fight or Flight and the last F isn't proper with children around nor needs to apply here (unless U can't find her under the sheets 😉
The things that reduce listening fatigue (only reducing).
-Horn loudspeaker (or other ultra efficient type <110dB sensitivity).
-Resistor in series with 100x of loudspeaker impedance value or more.
-Non fatiguing amp (easiest is low feedback amp with many op transistors loaded by <1ohm load)
-live condition (direct from mics or not recording based)
-many other but very minor.
This is usually not because of incomplete frequency information. No, we are not talking about a teenager who happens to find the bass so deep and wants to enjoy it more or shares the enjoyment with neighbors. No, not that one.
It is a sign of issue on the bass department. Can be a weakness in the design of low frequency roll off of the speaker, can be amplifier incapability to drive the woofer at such a high current output, or both.
This topic has also correlation with why we choose a tilted freq response.
Gedde already mentioned how noise affect listening fatigue: our brain has to work harder trying to understand the speech masked by noise. By exactly the same logic, multi driver speaker with incorrect timing caused by lousy crossover or room reflection will confuse the ears.
Things like these are not as obvious and audible as improper frequency response but those are imo what left beyond many designers capability to solve.
Extra low frequency is more dangerous than lack of. Room reflection and modes, phase issue between subwoofer and tweeter (im not even mentioning midrange)...
You're talking about systems that are "HEARD" not systems that are "LISTENED TO".
There's a big difference between the sound we're concerned with here, a high fidelity sound, and distributed background music.
Why is this even a point of contention?
Listening fatigue isn't, by the normal working definition, "running out the door screaming that they can't stand it". It's growing bored with the music. We're not talking about muzak. We're talking about people who are actually engaged with the musical content, actively listening, and finding that they're unable to do so after some amount of time.
If only hand clapping and muzak are applicable in your mind....
That was annoying mid-high sound comes from highdamping amp. Most high damping bjt amp did that.
::and yes it is fatiguing, you have problem with your amp😀
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There's a big difference between the sound we're concerned with here, a high fidelity sound, and distributed background music.
Why is this even a point of contention?
You are confused because you are discussing two different topics at the same time: fatigue and hifi
some people may have more immunity of fatiguing, when I was kid everything is just fine. That time I rarely hear any loudspeaker.
I agree.. hear, hear, hear, hear, hear, hear, hear, hear, hear, hear, hear, hear, hear... then fatiguing come to say: "here.. I.. come to youuu.... BHAHAHAHA..."
With regard to the magic stuff under 100Hz, I agree that a lot of general room rumbling is in that region - so if that sort of background filler is important to someone then it makes sense for them to have a system that can reproduce it.
Out of interest I examined some captured sound samples of the lowest strings of the electric bass - generally mentioned as being 'essential' to get right - and the interesting thing is that the fundamental frequency drops away dramatically the lower you go - at the deepest notes there is much, much greater energy in the harmonics.
To call a figure, if you go flat cleanly to 60Hz then I suspect the vast majority would struggle to pick a system that could go lower if just listening to the sounds from 'natural' instruments ...
Out of interest I examined some captured sound samples of the lowest strings of the electric bass - generally mentioned as being 'essential' to get right - and the interesting thing is that the fundamental frequency drops away dramatically the lower you go - at the deepest notes there is much, much greater energy in the harmonics.
To call a figure, if you go flat cleanly to 60Hz then I suspect the vast majority would struggle to pick a system that could go lower if just listening to the sounds from 'natural' instruments ...