Thanks Helmuth ! 🙂
E25 3020 may be closest what I need, but it has massive resonance just above 2kHz 🙁
With a steep filter at 2kHz it wont hurt, it is only about +6dB and in the waterfall it doesn't appear to be a very bad resonance.
And I was targeting at 1st order filter 😛 Anyway PHL drivers looks fine for a purpose.
With 4th order you have inphase transition and so not the combfiltering as with first oder. You also filter the higher harmonics away.
Helmuth,
Not only is it easier to have the phase correct at crossover with a 4th order network but the time alignment problems are also reduced greatly over a first order filter and two devices on a flat baffle, an often overlooked factor due to the physical depth of the two devices being very different.
Not only is it easier to have the phase correct at crossover with a 4th order network but the time alignment problems are also reduced greatly over a first order filter and two devices on a flat baffle, an often overlooked factor due to the physical depth of the two devices being very different.
no, ofcourse not directly
but comparing drivers within the same company does give some idea about any tendency and differences
comparing curves from two different companies is probably more or less pointless
6db filters doesnt really work properly without a zobel
but then it probably becomes closer to 12db than 6db (maybe just 8 or 10db)
but then it probably becomes closer to 12db than 6db (maybe just 8 or 10db)
Hi Guys,
Thanks again for all your opinions.
I have a quick update that will narrow things a lot:
1) I have at home my 45 SET amplifier. Power is 1.5 Watts, it sounds nice with 94db speakers, but I know it could do much better...
2) A friend, gave me a pair of JBL 2360A birradial horns (mouth = 80cm x 80cm).
3) I have been researching a compresion driver for this horns... I think the BMS 4591 is a good option.
http://bmsspeakers.com/fileadmin/bm...mpression_drivers/ferrite/bms_4591_t.data.pdf
Goal is to have an excelent sounding >100db speaker. Thinking in a super tweeter to improve directivity, and using the Omega Pro 18A up to 300-500hz, with a solid state amplifier until I get a better woofer.
Questions:
1) BMS 4591 is a 300hz-9khz driver. Any advantage in using something like the BMS 4590 that is a coaxial driver that reaches 20khz but need a crossover.
I am thinking 4591 with a supertweeter jbl2405 should be much better because of improved directivity.
Thanks...
Thanks again for all your opinions.
I have a quick update that will narrow things a lot:
1) I have at home my 45 SET amplifier. Power is 1.5 Watts, it sounds nice with 94db speakers, but I know it could do much better...
2) A friend, gave me a pair of JBL 2360A birradial horns (mouth = 80cm x 80cm).
3) I have been researching a compresion driver for this horns... I think the BMS 4591 is a good option.
http://bmsspeakers.com/fileadmin/bm...mpression_drivers/ferrite/bms_4591_t.data.pdf
Goal is to have an excelent sounding >100db speaker. Thinking in a super tweeter to improve directivity, and using the Omega Pro 18A up to 300-500hz, with a solid state amplifier until I get a better woofer.
Questions:
1) BMS 4591 is a 300hz-9khz driver. Any advantage in using something like the BMS 4590 that is a coaxial driver that reaches 20khz but need a crossover.
I am thinking 4591 with a supertweeter jbl2405 should be much better because of improved directivity.
Thanks...
Charly,
One comment that I will make about using a super tweeter is that you need to look at the minimum distance from the center of the 80cm horn lens to your super tweeter that has to be a little more than half the 80cm and that makes the center to center distance a minimum of 40cm. So no matter the design of the crossover you use you still have that distance between the on axis responses of the two devices and I have never seen anything like that where I could not hear that separation of the two sources over that distance. So I would much rather have a single device that can cover the range even if it is not perfect than use the two devices together. This may be a personal preference but I bet I get a lot of agreement on this. In the lower octaves it is not as much of an issue, but when you start dividing the frequencies in the upper range it does become a much greater issue.
One comment that I will make about using a super tweeter is that you need to look at the minimum distance from the center of the 80cm horn lens to your super tweeter that has to be a little more than half the 80cm and that makes the center to center distance a minimum of 40cm. So no matter the design of the crossover you use you still have that distance between the on axis responses of the two devices and I have never seen anything like that where I could not hear that separation of the two sources over that distance. So I would much rather have a single device that can cover the range even if it is not perfect than use the two devices together. This may be a personal preference but I bet I get a lot of agreement on this. In the lower octaves it is not as much of an issue, but when you start dividing the frequencies in the upper range it does become a much greater issue.
Hmmm..... maybe that's way I have such a hard time getting a horn + supertweeter combo that sounds right to me. It's not easy.
I appretiate your comments...
By the way... what do you think of these tweeters?
JBL Model 2405H Slot Tweeters Tested w JBL Diaphragms Clean Pair V Tubes 576 | eBay
Diafragms looks kind of nasty (some corrotion), wondering if it's a good deal to complement the 2360a horns
By the way... what do you think of these tweeters?
JBL Model 2405H Slot Tweeters Tested w JBL Diaphragms Clean Pair V Tubes 576 | eBay
Diafragms looks kind of nasty (some corrotion), wondering if it's a good deal to complement the 2360a horns
I haven't heard one of those slot radiators for years but if my memory is still intact I think those sound horrid.
😱 But those are the equivalent Pro version of the supertweeters used in the JBL Everest D55000 (JBL 077)
Yes,
And JBL has been known to make some atrocious designs in the past. The plate loaded horns from way back in the past are an excellent example of horrible designs and they were in many of their early home versions of their professional products. I don't remember any part numbers but just because it says JBL on it doesn't make it a great component.
And JBL has been known to make some atrocious designs in the past. The plate loaded horns from way back in the past are an excellent example of horrible designs and they were in many of their early home versions of their professional products. I don't remember any part numbers but just because it says JBL on it doesn't make it a great component.
Have you looked at the beyma tpl150h . This has excellent sensitivity and distortion. It can usefully be used from the high 1khz region right through to the top end.
It is not cheap but I am really impressed with both the measured and subjective performance of these.
I use them above a 10 inch jbl bass-mid with good results.
It is not cheap but I am really impressed with both the measured and subjective performance of these.
I use them above a 10 inch jbl bass-mid with good results.
Yep, In specific I am referencing JBL Everest D550000. I dont think they sound horrible.
Of all the horrid sounding drivers that JBL has made, I think that the 2405 is one of the least objectionable. That said, I can't think of one good reason to use the 2405 instead of the 4590.
1) (as mentioned) the 4590 is designed to have the mids and highs come from the same source. Aligning the mids and highs with the 2405 will not work.
2) The 4590 has a crossover designed to make the driver act as one unit.
3) The horn you have employes diffraction to disperse the HF. Not optimal, but the same as the 2405. You will not get any advantage from the 2405 over the 4590/2360 combination in directivity.
4) The 4590 HF is manufactured the same as the mids, so there will be more continuity in sound with the 4590 vs the 4591/2405.
5) IMO, the 4590 HF sounds better than the 2405.
6) $ The 4590/4591 cost difference will probably be less money than that of adding the 2405 to the 4591. This is for a new unit, that will be under warranty.
7) Do not think of using another driver for 1khz up. A big advantage of the BMS is using the mid diaphragm all the way to 6.3 Khz. 300-6K, all the way through the vocal range, with no crossovers.
8) 1 & 2 add up to no sensitivity issues to address. The mids and highs will match.
9) At the crossover point there will be a better transition in dispersion with the 4590, instead of an advantage, the 2405 will introduce more chaos, not improve it.
1) (as mentioned) the 4590 is designed to have the mids and highs come from the same source. Aligning the mids and highs with the 2405 will not work.
2) The 4590 has a crossover designed to make the driver act as one unit.
3) The horn you have employes diffraction to disperse the HF. Not optimal, but the same as the 2405. You will not get any advantage from the 2405 over the 4590/2360 combination in directivity.
4) The 4590 HF is manufactured the same as the mids, so there will be more continuity in sound with the 4590 vs the 4591/2405.
5) IMO, the 4590 HF sounds better than the 2405.
6) $ The 4590/4591 cost difference will probably be less money than that of adding the 2405 to the 4591. This is for a new unit, that will be under warranty.
7) Do not think of using another driver for 1khz up. A big advantage of the BMS is using the mid diaphragm all the way to 6.3 Khz. 300-6K, all the way through the vocal range, with no crossovers.
8) 1 & 2 add up to no sensitivity issues to address. The mids and highs will match.
9) At the crossover point there will be a better transition in dispersion with the 4590, instead of an advantage, the 2405 will introduce more chaos, not improve it.
I have used a modded BMS4592 in orphean horn from BD design.
The biggest short coming is beaming in the treble. If you like megaphone like sound, ok, go for it.
Jbl 2405, and 077, have all a peaky sound. Never liked it.
If you want something better : go for Beyma TPL150.
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yor points make sense, but i am not sure if i like the idea of a horn that is coherent but very beamy.
then im not sure what would be the benefit of using horns...
you are making me question the project...
then im not sure what would be the benefit of using horns...
you are making me question the project...
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